[AT] Air conditioning problems In my parts getter...

[Brad Loomis]

I was at a service school in the late early 90s where the ice machine
manufacturer showed photos of an evaporator that used butane as the
refrigerant and produced 650 tons of ice a day. It was about 15' long and
3' in diameter. At a power plant if I recall correctly. That was before the
EPA started regulating CFCs. Vogt Tube ice, with the hole in the middle. I
loved working on their machines. One of the first if not the first to put a
PLC into their units. We put in a bunch at Disneyland.

Brad

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 1:53 PM Mark Johnson <markjohnson100 at centurylink.net>
wrote:

> Cecil:
>
> This has been known about propane and isobutane for many years...but in
> some states, putting that blend into auto a/c would earn you thousands
> of dollars in fines, due to the perceived safety hazard. The way that
> 1970's and earlier cars leaked refrigerant I'd say that the penalties
> were not a bad idea; maybe it's less true today. IIRC, 80% propane and
> 20% isobutane has almost exactly the same refrigerant curves as R-12,
> and it will carry the same lubricants through a system, too. But if I
> still owned a vehicle built for R-12, I wouldn't do it!
>
> Mark J
>
> On 6/12/2021 3:20 PM, Cecil Bearden wrote:
> > Steve:
> >
> > I read up on using propane as a refrigerant and it needs some
> > isobutane for some reason.  There is a formula on the internet to make
> > it.  You have to get some propane lighter fuel and inject it onto the
> > tank of propane to get the mix right.  I have read that rail car
> > refrigeration systems use propane.  It is accepted as a refrigerant in
> > non automotive systems...  It has about the right pressures to work as
> > a refrigerant...
> >
> > It sure is funny that there is no way to save the planet and maintain
> > a decent comfort level without breaking the bank...
> >
> > Cecil
> >
> > On 6/12/2021 10:55 AM, Steve W. wrote:
> >> Cecil Bearden wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> R1234y, and it is expensive.  I imagine it is developed by Dupont
> >>> and they need to get their money back.  The patents ran out on 134,
> >>> so they had to bring in something expensive again. It is also
> >>> flammable, So, why couldn't propane be usuable for refrigerant??  It
> >>> is also flammable..  But a lot cheaper....
> >>>
> >>> Cecil
> >>
> >> Now Cecil, you can't say that, they brought out R1234YF to save the
> >> planet for the little children.  Just because the patent expired on
> >> 134A and Dupont was pushing to replace it with the newly patented
> >> material had nothing to do with it. Shame on you for thinking they
> >> only want the money, it's to save the planet... LOL
> >>
> >> This question actually came up at one of the classes on this crap a
> >> while back, the "Save the planet" answer was the party line, but most
> >> of us had been through the same BS back when R-12 was dropped and
> >> commented that at least then Dupont was honest and said that they
> >> were pushing R134a due to the patent issue.
> >>
> >> The one trick is that if the price on the 1234yf doesn't drop a lot,
> >> there are likely going to be many conversions to R134a. If you pull
> >> the R1234yf out, fully flush the system and swap out the drier to be
> >> sure you got all the oil you can recharge with PAG and R134a and have
> >> the system work just fine as the two are almost identical in
> >> operational characteristics.
> >>
> >> Just don't get caught because the EPA has tagged R1234yf differently,
> >> it's now considered as part of the emissions system on the vehicles
> >> that use it because the companies were handed carbon offsets for
> >> using it. So swapping it out is now a violation of the Clean Air Act.
> >> The fines start at about $10,000.00 after they are done dragging you
> >> through the system.
> >>
> >> As for propane, there was an Australian, Ian MaClaine-Cross pushing
> >> his hydrocarbon based replacement as a drop in for R12 who managed to
> >> blow himself up on camera, during a demonstration showing just how
> >> safe it was.
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0K1WPCWm2k
> >>
> >> The resulting charges over it -
> >> https://vasa.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2005-May.pdf
> >>
> >>
> >> Other MACS demonstrations of the same type -
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO47SzxJmV0
> >>
> >>
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