[AT] Tractor battery

Tue Nov 16 02:52:14 PST 2021

Replying to my own note - just found the comment about Tier 3 diesel, so
it's pretty modern.  It may not have electronic engine controls but my
comment about the alternator is certainly valid.  Don't do it.

SO

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 5:49 AM Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com> wrote:

> Mike - I would say DO NOT fire it up without a battery!  I'm not certain
> but I believe this is a modern-ish compact utility tractor.  If so, it is
> quite likely to have a solid-state voltage regulator built into the
> alternator and you'll risk burning it up.
>
> SO
>
> On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 11:26 PM Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Dennis, it is all by key. I remember as a teenager, I had to run a
>> skid steer, and to cut off the air to turn it off.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike M
>>
>> On 11/15/2021 10:29 PM, Dennis Johnson wrote:
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> What turns the fuel on and off. If it is a key there is probably a
>> solenoid somewhere. My 97 Cummins 5.9 in my old dually has a solenoid to
>> turn fuel on and off. If you have a mechanical lever to turn the engine on
>> and off you are OK.
>> I am not aware of anything you would hurt by jumping IH.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Nov 15, 2021, at 8:24 PM, Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> <meulenms at gmx.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Hi Dennis, thanks for the response, mine is a Tier 3 diesel engine that
>> is not electronically  controlled  as far as I know. Can I do any damage by
>> trying to start it without the battery installed? I will follow up with the
>> dealer tomorrow as well. I will also insulate the +/-  leads so they don't
>> touch anything.
>>
>> Thank-you,
>> Mike M
>>
>> On 11/15/2021 7:12 PM, Dennis Johnson wrote:
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Jumping a diesel w/o battery depends on if you have any electrons that
>> control or turn on things like fuel solenoids, etc.  Old engines with
>> manual fuel shut off’s and mechanical injectors should work fine. Newer
>> ones with more electrons controlling stuff will not run w/o a battery
>> somehow hooked up.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Nov 15, 2021, at 6:06 PM, Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> <meulenms at gmx.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Tore out the battery today, tons of corrosion, to the point that the
>> positive nut for the clamp was almost reduced by 75%, I had to pound it
>> off. I thought I had things cleaned up but it appears that was not the
>> case. I'll go battery shopping tomorrow, and hopefully I can find something
>> close. Meanwhile I have the battery case coated in baking soda, to help
>> neutralize the leaking battery acid. Question for the list can I jump a
>> diesel, without the battery installed? I'm running out of time in Michigan,
>> and all our water is shut off except the barn frost free.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike M
>>
>> On 11/15/2021 3:37 PM, Steve W. wrote:
>>
>> Not a problem, I get to deal with these things a lot. At this point even
>> doing simple repairs are becoming hard if not impossible for the average
>> DIYer due to the way the companies are building them. There are some out
>> there now that have “sealed drivelines” where they have no dipsticks or
>> easily accessible fill plugs to even do routine service and you need a scan
>> tool to even check fluid levels!
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com>
>> *Sent: *Monday, November 15, 2021 5:28 AM
>> *To: *Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group
>> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>> *Subject: *Re: [AT] Tractor battery
>>
>>
>>
>> Extremely useful and informative for modern vehicles, thanks SteveW!
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve O.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 14, 2021 at 10:39 PM Steve W. <swilliams268 at frontier.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Whatever you do, do NOT use the old “unhook the battery to see if it
>> stays running” test that used to be done. On any vehicles newer than about
>> 1998 that is almost a guaranteed way to destroy the charging system. On
>> most cars and trucks built from there on up, the voltage regulator is part
>> of the engines control unit. Those are not cheap to replace. Another no-no
>> is to jump start a newer vehicle without charging the battery or leaving a
>> jump pack on it, many of the newer vehicles will read the bad battery and
>> crank the voltage and amperage way up to try to compensate for the low
>> battery, that can kill the alternator, and if the battery is failing it can
>> blow it up from the excessive charging. I can’t count how many vehicles I
>> had to repair once the bug measures let people start using their cars
>> again, after they were parked for 3-4 months.
>>
>> Now if you are one of the “fortunate” who has one of the over engineered
>> modern rolling computers made from about 2017 and up, Check really close in
>> service information before you replace an old battery, many of those need
>> to have the battery initialized into the system because the ECU has
>> adjusted itself as the old battery wore out, you need to tell it that you
>> are installing the new battery and what it is in CCA and type, be it a
>> flooded cell, AGM, Lithium or other as they all use slightly different
>> charging routines and it’s easy to cook a battery if it’s set up wrong. To
>> go with that, many of the parts stores offer installation as long as you
>> have one that is reasonably easy, there are quite a few that are not due to
>> the battery locations. OH and for the import owners, be sure which battery
>> you actually need as many of the high dollar brands use 2 or three
>> different batteries scattered around the vehicle. Mercedes for instance has
>> one in the trunk, one under the hood and one tucked in behind the dash!
>>
>> For those of you who still want to DIY it, here is another tip. On cars
>> that have lots of options or anything 2017 and up, the security systems can
>> be a royal pain if you remove the battery, they can lock you out of
>> everything so you end up towing it to a dealer to have it flashed back. The
>> way around this is simple. Find the feed and ground lugs for the fuse box
>> or if it has them the jumper terminals mounted out in the open. Now grab a
>> power supply or a fully charged battery and connect it up to those, in the
>> case of using a spare battery, connect it, start the engine and let it run
>> for 20 minutes or so, that will equalize the charge in the add-on battery,
>> verify that the charging circuit is working as well, simply by measuring
>> the voltage with the engine off, then again with it running. With a power
>> supply (NOT A COMMON CHARGER) you just dial it up to the voltage the
>> service info says or at least 13 volts. Now you can disconnect the main
>> battery without losing any settings or programming because the ECU never
>> sees it disconnected. Just remember that the Positive terminal will still
>> be hot when you do this, my SOP is to pull the ground side, then take a
>> heavy rubber/plastic baggy and as soon as the pos. comes of it goes into
>> the bag to keep it safe.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Henry Miller <hank at millerfarm.com>
>> *Sent: *Sunday, November 14, 2021 4:23 PM
>> *To: *at at lists.antique-tractor.com
>> *Subject: *Re: [AT] Tractor battery
>>
>>
>>
>> Be careful with modern cars, some cycle the alternator on and off.  Weird
>> when driving to see the voltmeter not hold constant. (This was a rental
>> car, I almost turned around for one that worked before I figured it out )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>   Henry Miller
>>
>>   hank at millerfarm.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 14, 2021, at 16:37, Stephen Offiler wrote:
>>
>> > Quick check is just battery voltage not running versus running.  If your
>>
>> > alternator is putting out something, voltage is higher when running.  If
>>
>> > the alternator is bad, voltage is close to the same or a bit lower when
>>
>> > running (probably lower because the battery gave up some juice to crank
>> it
>>
>> > over).  If you are wondering if the alternator is somewhere in between
>>
>> > healthy and dead, turn on as many electrical loads as you can while
>>
>> > running.  Alternator should handle those loads and still give the
>> battery
>>
>> > terminals something over 13.5V.  (Because it is supplying other things
>> in
>>
>> > addition to battery recharge, you may not see the whole 14-ish volts,
>> but
>>
>> > it must be greater than 12.6-ish to be pushing charge into the battery.
>>
>> > Hope this helps.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > SO
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> > On Sun, Nov 14, 2021 at 3:43 PM Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >> Thanks Steve, it there a way to test whats coming out the alternator?
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> Mike M
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> On 11/14/2021 2:15 PM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> Hi Mike:
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> I've heard baking soda can neutralize the acid but I'd probably ask the
>>
>> >> Google for backup on that.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> A good range for battery terminal voltage engine-running is
>> 13.6V-14.4V.
>>
>> >> Some modern voltage regulators have temperature compensation, dropping
>>
>> >> voltage in high temperature conditions (when it is easier to charge and
>>
>> >> easier to overdo it) and raising voltage in the cold (when they're not
>> as
>>
>> >> eager to accept charge).  Not all alternators do this, but I just
>> wanted to
>>
>> >> explain why there's such a fairly wide range.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> SO
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> On Sun, Nov 14, 2021 at 2:03 PM Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>> Tough to say Steve, I do know that I filled some of the battery
>> chambers
>>
>> >>> with distilled water because some seemed a little low, and it leaked
>>
>> >>> battery acid for a few days. whats the best way to clean that up? I
>> know
>>
>> >>> it's very caustic. What should the voltage be across the terminals
>> with the
>>
>> >>> engine running?
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> Thanks,
>>
>> >>> Mike M
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> On 10/28/2021 6:08 AM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> The question is, what happened?  Is your alternator not charging?
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> SO
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 9:30 PM Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>>> Whew!! got it back for now. It started right up and the terminals
>> where
>>
>> >>>> shiny as new, ground as well. Voltage across the terminals was 13.3
>> and
>>
>> >>>> climbing. I have the trickle charger on it overnight, and will give
>> it a
>>
>> >>>> good workout tomorrow. Thanks for all the help!
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> Regards,
>>
>> >>>> Mike M
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> On 10/27/2021 1:22 PM, Mike M wrote:
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> When I checked the voltage between the posts with a digital volt
>> meter,
>>
>> >>>> I only got 11.5 volts, I left the charger on overnight, and it's now
>> up to
>>
>> >>>> 13 volts, so I switched to a maintainer.  It's raining here today so
>> I'm
>>
>> >>>> leaving it on the charger, and yes I will check the grounds for sure!
>>
>> >>>> Thanks for the advice to all. I'll let you know how it turns out.
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> Regards,
>>
>> >>>> Mike M
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> On 10/27/2021 7:54 AM, Steve Offiler wrote:
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> I wonder how many thousands of times farmer has typed that over the
>>
>> >>>> years!
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> When Mike said it only clicked when jumped, that simply says bad
>>
>> >>>> connection.  I’m not sure why the focus on a bad battery just yet.
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> Steve O.
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> On Oct 27, 2021, at 6:47 AM, Indiana Robinson <
>> robinson46176 at gmail.com>
>>
>> >>>> <robinson46176 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> 
>>
>> >>>> Check the grounds.
>>
>> >>>> Check the grounds.
>>
>> >>>> Check the grounds.
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> .
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 1:22 AM Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>>> Makes me wish for my old tractor and I could back it up onto a hill,
>>
>> >>>>> let it get rolling and pop the clutch in 2nd gear.
>>
>> >>>>>
>>
>> >>>>> Mike M
>>
>> >>>>>
>>
>> >>>>>
>>
>> >>>>> On 10/26/2021 11:46 PM, Carl Szabelski wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>
>>
>> >>>>> Mike,
>>
>> >>>>>
>>
>> >>>>> Try jumping it, but leave the cables connected for 20-30 minutes
>> before
>>
>> >>>>> you attempt a start. Even if you’ve had the charger on all night.
>> Even with
>>
>> >>>>> a dead battery it should start and run. It may die when you
>> disconnect the
>>
>> >>>>> cables, but if it doesn’t, it should run, but the battery probably
>> won’t
>>
>> >>>>> take a charge.
>>
>> >>>>>
>>
>> >>>>> Carl
>>
>> >>>>>
>>
>> >>>>> On Tuesday, October 26, 2021, Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>
>>
>> >>>>>> So my tractor battery went dead overnight. It's an Exide Select
>>
>> >>>>>> Performance battery, with 925 CCA model 31XHE with 180 minutes of
>>
>> >>>>>> reserve capacity. I tried jumping it with my truck but no luck it
>> would
>>
>> >>>>>> just click. I started looking online, and about fell out of my
>> chair.
>>
>> >>>>>> Prices started at $300 and and most are out of stock. Does anyone
>> have
>>
>> >>>>>> any good sources for batteries? It was manufactured in 2014, so I
>> guess
>>
>> >>>>>> the clock just ran out. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Is
>>
>> >>>>>> there
>>
>> >>>>>> anyway to service it, or rejuvenate it?
>>
>> >>>>>>
>>
>> >>>>>> Thank you,
>>
>> >>>>>> Mike M
>>
>> >>>>>>
>>
>> >>>>>>
>>
>> >>>>>>
>>
>> >>>>>>
>>
>> >>>>>> --
>>
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>>
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>> >>>> --
>>
>> >>>> --
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> Francis Robinson
>>
>> >>>> aka "farmer"
>>
>> >>>> Central Indiana USA
>>
>> >>>> robinson46176 at gmail.com
>>
>> >>>>
>>
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