[AT] Air conditioning problems In my parts getter...

[Mark Johnson]

Cecil:

This has been known about propane and isobutane for many years...but in 
some states, putting that blend into auto a/c would earn you thousands 
of dollars in fines, due to the perceived safety hazard. The way that 
1970's and earlier cars leaked refrigerant I'd say that the penalties 
were not a bad idea; maybe it's less true today. IIRC, 80% propane and 
20% isobutane has almost exactly the same refrigerant curves as R-12, 
and it will carry the same lubricants through a system, too. But if I 
still owned a vehicle built for R-12, I wouldn't do it!

Mark J

On 6/12/2021 3:20 PM, Cecil Bearden wrote:
> Steve:
>
> I read up on using propane as a refrigerant and it needs some 
> isobutane for some reason.  There is a formula on the internet to make 
> it.  You have to get some propane lighter fuel and inject it onto the 
> tank of propane to get the mix right.  I have read that rail car 
> refrigeration systems use propane.  It is accepted as a refrigerant in 
> non automotive systems...  It has about the right pressures to work as 
> a refrigerant...
>
> It sure is funny that there is no way to save the planet and maintain 
> a decent comfort level without breaking the bank...
>
> Cecil
>
> On 6/12/2021 10:55 AM, Steve W. wrote:
>> Cecil Bearden wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> R1234y, and it is expensive.  I imagine it is developed by Dupont 
>>> and they need to get their money back.  The patents ran out on 134, 
>>> so they had to bring in something expensive again. It is also 
>>> flammable, So, why couldn't propane be usuable for refrigerant??  It 
>>> is also flammable..  But a lot cheaper....
>>>
>>> Cecil
>>
>> Now Cecil, you can't say that, they brought out R1234YF to save the 
>> planet for the little children.  Just because the patent expired on 
>> 134A and Dupont was pushing to replace it with the newly patented 
>> material had nothing to do with it. Shame on you for thinking they 
>> only want the money, it's to save the planet... LOL
>>
>> This question actually came up at one of the classes on this crap a 
>> while back, the "Save the planet" answer was the party line, but most 
>> of us had been through the same BS back when R-12 was dropped and 
>> commented that at least then Dupont was honest and said that they 
>> were pushing R134a due to the patent issue.
>>
>> The one trick is that if the price on the 1234yf doesn't drop a lot, 
>> there are likely going to be many conversions to R134a. If you pull 
>> the R1234yf out, fully flush the system and swap out the drier to be 
>> sure you got all the oil you can recharge with PAG and R134a and have 
>> the system work just fine as the two are almost identical in 
>> operational characteristics.
>>
>> Just don't get caught because the EPA has tagged R1234yf differently, 
>> it's now considered as part of the emissions system on the vehicles 
>> that use it because the companies were handed carbon offsets for 
>> using it. So swapping it out is now a violation of the Clean Air Act.
>> The fines start at about $10,000.00 after they are done dragging you 
>> through the system.
>>
>> As for propane, there was an Australian, Ian MaClaine-Cross pushing 
>> his hydrocarbon based replacement as a drop in for R12 who managed to 
>> blow himself up on camera, during a demonstration showing just how 
>> safe it was.
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0K1WPCWm2k
>>
>> The resulting charges over it -
>> https://vasa.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2005-May.pdf
>>
>>
>> Other MACS demonstrations of the same type -
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO47SzxJmV0
>>
>>
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