[AT] Something to do
Phil Auten
pga2 at basicisp.net
Sun Sep 20 06:35:18 PDT 2020
Looks like a pretty nice paint job on your B, Dean. Nice metal work
underneath is the key to that.
Phil in TX
On 9/19/2020 11:36 PM, Dean VP wrote:
>
> David,
>
> Looks like we have had some similar experiences. The lure of a
> trailer queen antique tractor is so strong that we act like men who
> have just seen the prettiest woman on the planet. It is hard to
> resist the attraction and get back to basics about what has really
> been done to restore the tractor. If someone was promoting a $4500
> paint job on a tractor I would just simply walk away. I’m still
> having trouble at the $1,000 level. I’ve seen a lot of 50’ paint jobs
> that just won’t pass inspection close up. I think that is why I like
> doing the mechanical restoration and absolutely detest the painting
> part. I never can do it to my own satisfaction. A real handicap on my
> part. One thing that has to be right is what I see of the hood when I
> am sitting in the seat. That is why I took this attached picture from
> the seat of my 1935 JD B.
>
> Dean VP
>
> Snohomish, WA 98290
>
> "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and
> gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
>
> ..Winston Churchill...
>
> *From:* AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> *On Behalf Of
> *drgerber at bright.net
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 19, 2020 4:04 PM
> *To:* 'Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group'
> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [AT] Something to do
>
> I agree Dean. Even when you pay a “professional” for a restoration,
> you can be highly disappointed after paying top dollar. I had one
> done and when it came back the power steering still didn’t work
> correctly, and if you left is sit a few days with the battery
> terminals hooked up the battery was dead. So much for the new wiring
> harness and power steering rebuild. Best to do it yourself if
> possible, or have someone you really trust do some of the components.
> Mechanicals are always a never ending job. Same goes for paint. I
> was at Gathering of the Green and there was a gorgeous 51 John Deere B
> with a promotional sign saying “we painted this tractor for
> $4,500.00. I looked at it several time to make sure I was seeing
> things correctly as a 51 B tops out quite a bit less than that. I
> know painting has gone to crazy NASA technology these days, expensive
> paints and solvents, base coat clear coat on sheet metal, even whole
> tractors, but 4.5K for just a paint job is WAY out of line as far as
> I’m concerned. I also made the mistake many years ago for buying a
> “Sherwin Williams” overhaul; wound up completely rebuilding that
> beauty. Buyer beware.
>
> I also understand what Spencer was asking for so threw in my opinion
> based on his reasonable info from the family involved.
>
> Dave in Ohio
>
> *From:* AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> <mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com>> *On Behalf Of *Dean VP
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 19, 2020 5:56 PM
> *To:* 'Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group'
> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com <mailto:at at lists.antique-tractor.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: [AT] Something to do
>
> Spencer,
>
> Unless the guy did the restorations himself he too may be depending on
> unreliable information. His intent and motivation may be pure as the
> fresh fallen snow but does he really know what has been done to each
> tractor? That is the missing detail here. Without that information
> directly from the original person who did the restorations or even
> from someone who knew that person and knew what kind of work that
> person did it is a complete crap shoot without personal hands on
> inspection. I could give some pricing ranges on specific tractors but
> I don’t think that would be very useful. $1000 to $4000 for example
> would not be very helpful. Even if one were to add the required
> caveats to any number supplied the receiver of the information will
> always take one of the extreme ends dependent on their situation.
> That is just human nature.
>
> For example, there are a few beautifully painted tractors in the
> greater Phoenix area that are described as professionally restored.
> Some with asking prices in the mid $20,000’s. There was one
> particular tractor that interested me and I wanted to look at it to
> see what a really professionally tractor of that model and year really
> looked like, take some pictures and possibly find out if there was
> any negotiating room if I really remained interested in it. I have a
> tractor of that model and year in work for restoration right now and
> given a decent price I could get to the end result I’m looking for
> quicker with maybe not a huge increase in total cost. Correct
> restorations can get expensive. The pictures were spectacular and
> enticing. So…… I had to go take a look. The owner had passed and
> the widow was selling the tractors with the aid of a neighbor who knew
> nothing about the tractors other than they were “professionally
> restored” Being very familiar with most of the details of this
> particular model of tractor I was stunned when I actually got hands
> on. The paint job was pretty good but it went down hill fast from
> there. When I started going through the details of the tractor I
> uncovered missing parts, incorrect parts, partially restored
> assemblies, wrong tire sizes, decals in the wrong place and incorrect
> for this particular tractor, etc, etc, Things and details that a
> honest professional restorer would never overlook. Example, there are
> decal suppliers out there that supply incorrect decals for certain
> model and year tractors. A professional restorer knows who are the
> suppliers of correct decals. Details, yes, but…. if I’m going to pay
> top dollar it damned well be done correctly or I will deduct value to
> correct it. So to be honest I was so disappointed I didn’t even try
> to negotiate a deal. I looked at all the other tractors for sale that
> were also supposedly professionally restored and even with less
> detailed knowledge on each model tractor I had enough experience to
> again detect many of the same warts that I had uncovered on the target
> tractor. BTW a couple of these tractors may end up on the Barrett
> Jackson auction next year. The asking price on one of the tractors, a
> Plain Jane late model JD B was somewhere between 4 to 5 times it’s
> value even if it was restored properly. Maybe they will find that one
> buyer from nowhere who knows nothing about the tractor who will pay
> that kind of money. But I can assure you it won’t be a knowledgeable
> JD Tractor collector
>
> There used to be a popular business management consultant who wrote
> several books by the name of Tom Peters. One of his sayings was: “
> When I’m on an airplane and I see a fold down tray on the seat back in
> front of me in that is broken and dirty I immediately start to worry
> about how well the engines have been maintained” So when one
> observes defects and deficiencies on things we CAN see on the exterior
> of the tractor there becomes an immediate concern about what CAN’T be
> seen inside the tractor.
>
> I have found that most, not all, antique tractor sellers are honest.
> IF, They have done all the work. If they are not the original owners
> things can go downhill real fast. They May have been misled when they
> purchased the tractor. They may be honest with everything they say but
> conveniently not mention things if you don’t ask. So bottom line I get
> really cautious when I see pretty tractors for sale. Is it pretty
> because there is lipstick on a pig or has a real restoration been
> done? Unfortunately many of the pretty tractors I have seen have been
> primarily cosmetically restored but sold as complete mechanical and
> cosmetic restorations. Makes one very cautious. Now an exception, 20
> or more years ago when I didn’t know “up from down” about antique
> tractors and how much it cost to do a really thorough restoration I
> was exposed to an antique tractor that was absolutely gorgeous and was
> being sold as a “Frame UP” restoration. Supposedly every bolt had
> been removed the tractor and every part either replaced or restored to
> original or better condition. First of all I had a hard time believing
> someone would even do that on an antique tractor. The asking price
> was quite high but not outrageous. I really wanted that tractor but
> my gut told me to be careful. I walked away. Not too much later I was
> able to talk to people who knew the seller and they verified
> everything the seller was saying about the tractor from personal
> experience. It was a “Frame Up” restoration. The asking price
> actually WAS A BARGAIN AND I DIDN’T REALIZE IT. Needless to say the
> tractor sold before I could get back to it.
>
> So this goes both ways, the tractors may be professionally restored
> and worth top dollar or just cosmetically restored. I don’t think we
> or you know at this point. So providing price guidance is really
> risky, especially when there is a possibility of creating family
> conflicts. Sometimes it is better to bow out.
>
> //
>
> Dean VP
>
> Snohomish, WA 98290
>
> "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and
> gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
>
> ..Winston Churchill...
>
> *From:* AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> <mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com>> *On Behalf Of *Spencer Yost
> *Sent:* Friday, September 18, 2020 7:55 PM
> *To:* Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group
> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com <mailto:at at lists.antique-tractor.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: [AT] Something to do
>
> I don’t think the guy is motivated to mislead me, so when he said
> they’re all in good shape, complete and well restored I took him at
> his word. The pics seem to back him up on this. And I always couch
> my reply in caveats so that there’s no misunderstanding.
>
> I wasn’t asking for any kind of professional opinion with an exact
> number, I was really curious about opinions you folks have as to
> what’s something like these tractors worth(ballpark) in your neck of
> the woods (again taking the info at face value and that they are
> reasonably well restored and running)? I know there’s some details
> missing and we do not have all the information. But seeing the pics
> of his shop and the tractors they probably don’t lack for much.
>
> I was also hoping to generate some discussion as to how the pandemic
> and the prevalence of online options may be affecting values in your area.
>
> I was really just looking for some rough info like Dave’s (drgerber)
> original post (Which I appreciate-thanks!).
>
> PS. I did find out in a subsequent email that if an auction takes
> place in person it will be in Roxboro North Carolina - a good ways NW
> of Raleigh.
>
> Spencer
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 18, 2020, at 10:26 PM, drgerber at bright.net
> <mailto:drgerber at bright.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> I would agree with Dean entirely. Hard to tell unless you hear
> each one run, drive it around, etc. I was under the impression
> that they were “properly restored”. Even one that is
> professionally restored still need the bugs worked out. So, hope
> they are well restored and bring the family the desired results.
>
> Dave in Ohio
>
> *From:* AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> <mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com>> *On Behalf Of *Jim
> Becker
> *Sent:* Friday, September 18, 2020 8:34 PM
> *To:* Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group
> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com <mailto:at at lists.antique-tractor.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: [AT] Something to do
>
> Dean really said it all here. These thoughts (and maybe the
> words, verbatim) should be included with any reply to a “what’s it
> worth” email.
>
> As to this batch of tractors, a few observations. They definitely
> have, or had oil in them. Oil absorbing mats can be seen in a few
> places, as can some oil puddles. Look under the transmission of
> the 40. Looking at the Cub, I see some lack of attention to
> detail. The decals used are at least 10 years worth of wrong for
> the apparent age of tractor. Maybe they bought decals based on
> the serial number and the serial number is older than a bunch of
> the parts. Maybe it is a Heinz 57. I also note several points of
> sloppiness in the wiring. Likewise, the Super A has a bunch of
> black paint that doesn’t belong there. I can’t speak to anything
> about the John Deeres, other than what is obvious to anyone.
>
> Don’t get me wrong. They are nice looking tractors that would
> show well. But the bottom line is still, don’t confuse an overly
> shiny paint job with a first class restoration that would command
> a high price.
>
> Jim Becker
>
> *From:*Dean VP
>
> *Sent:*Friday, September 18, 2020 4:07 PM
>
> *To:*'Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group'
>
> *Subject:*Re: [AT] Something to do
>
> After getting fooled by some antique tractors which looked really
> good but in reality needed a huge amount of mechanical work I
> think it would be unwise to make guesses as to value. I have no
> valid reason to doubt that these have been both mechanically as
> well as cosmetically restored bujt…. And with no leaks on the
> floor either says they have been meticulously restored or they
> have no fluid in them. BUT…. Have they been mechanically restored
> as well as cosmetically restored? We don’t know the answer to
> those questions. Without knowing that answer any value placed on
> them would be very dangerous. The real problem with cosmetic only
> restoration is the cosmetic restoration usually gets damaged doing
> the mechanical restauration later an d then a new cosmetic
> restoration is required.
>
> Look like pretty good cosmetic restorations but….. Without
> further information I would place a value quite low to protect
> against potential future expense. AND… that might be unfair to the
> family.
>
> Dean VP
>
> Snohomish, WA 98290
>
> "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and
> gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
>
> ..Winston Churchill...
>
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