<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>Looks like a pretty nice paint job on your B, Dean. Nice metal
work underneath is the key to that.</p>
<p>Phil in TX</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/19/2020 11:36 PM, Dean VP wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:3d5901d68f07$93f41bc0$bbdc5340$@att.net">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered
medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Calibri Light";
panose-1:2 15 3 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:#0563C1;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle20
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}</style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">David,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Looks like we have had some similar
experiences. The lure of a trailer queen antique tractor is
so strong that we act like men who have just seen the
prettiest woman on the planet. It is hard to resist the
attraction and get back to basics about what has really been
done to restore the tractor. If someone was promoting a $4500
paint job on a tractor I would just simply walk away. I’m
still having trouble at the $1,000 level. I’ve seen a lot of
50’ paint jobs that just won’t pass inspection close up. I
think that is why I like doing the mechanical restoration and
absolutely detest the painting part. I never can do it to my
own satisfaction. A real handicap on my part. One thing that
has to be right is what I see of the hood when I am sitting in
the seat. That is why I took this attached picture from the
seat of my 1935 JD B.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dean VP<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Snohomish, WA 98290<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,
the creed of ignorance, and gospel of envy, its inherent
virtue is the equal sharing of misery."<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">..Winston Churchill...<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> AT
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:at-bounces@lists.antique-tractor.com"><at-bounces@lists.antique-tractor.com></a> <b>On Behalf
Of </b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:drgerber@bright.net">drgerber@bright.net</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 19, 2020 4:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group'
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:at@lists.antique-tractor.com"><at@lists.antique-tractor.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AT] Something to do<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri
Light",sans-serif">I agree Dean. Even when you pay a
“professional” for a restoration, you can be highly
disappointed after paying top dollar. I had one done and
when it came back the power steering still didn’t work
correctly, and if you left is sit a few days with the
battery terminals hooked up the battery was dead. So much
for the new wiring harness and power steering rebuild. Best
to do it yourself if possible, or have someone you really
trust do some of the components. Mechanicals are always a
never ending job. Same goes for paint. I was at Gathering
of the Green and there was a gorgeous 51 John Deere B with a
promotional sign saying “we painted this tractor for
$4,500.00. I looked at it several time to make sure I was
seeing things correctly as a 51 B tops out quite a bit less
than that. I know painting has gone to crazy NASA
technology these days, expensive paints and solvents, base
coat clear coat on sheet metal, even whole tractors, but
4.5K for just a paint job is WAY out of line as far as I’m
concerned. I also made the mistake many years ago for
buying a “Sherwin Williams” overhaul; wound up completely
rebuilding that beauty. Buyer beware.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri
Light",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri
Light",sans-serif">I also understand what Spencer was
asking for so threw in my opinion based on his reasonable
info from the family involved.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri
Light",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri
Light",sans-serif">Dave in Ohio<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri
Light",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> AT <<a
href="mailto:at-bounces@lists.antique-tractor.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">at-bounces@lists.antique-tractor.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dean VP<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 19, 2020 5:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group' <<a
href="mailto:at@lists.antique-tractor.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">at@lists.antique-tractor.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AT] Something to do<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Spencer,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Unless the guy did the restorations himself
he too may be depending on unreliable information. His intent
and motivation may be pure as the fresh fallen snow but does
he really know what has been done to each tractor? That is
the missing detail here. Without that information directly
from the original person who did the restorations or even from
someone who knew that person and knew what kind of work that
person did it is a complete crap shoot without personal hands
on inspection. I could give some pricing ranges on specific
tractors but I don’t think that would be very useful. $1000 to
$4000 for example would not be very helpful. Even if one
were to add the required caveats to any number supplied the
receiver of the information will always take one of the
extreme ends dependent on their situation. That is just human
nature. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">For example, there are a few beautifully
painted tractors in the greater Phoenix area that are
described as professionally restored. Some with asking prices
in the mid $20,000’s. There was one particular tractor that
interested me and I wanted to look at it to see what a really
professionally tractor of that model and year really looked
like, take some pictures and possibly find out if there was
any negotiating room if I really remained interested in it. I
have a tractor of that model and year in work for restoration
right now and given a decent price I could get to the end
result I’m looking for quicker with maybe not a huge increase
in total cost. Correct restorations can get expensive. The
pictures were spectacular and enticing. So…… I had to go
take a look. The owner had passed and the widow was selling
the tractors with the aid of a neighbor who knew nothing about
the tractors other than they were “professionally restored”
Being very familiar with most of the details of this
particular model of tractor I was stunned when I actually got
hands on. The paint job was pretty good but it went down hill
fast from there. When I started going through the details of
the tractor I uncovered missing parts, incorrect parts,
partially restored assemblies, wrong tire sizes, decals in the
wrong place and incorrect for this particular tractor, etc,
etc, Things and details that a honest professional restorer
would never overlook. Example, there are decal suppliers out
there that supply incorrect decals for certain model and year
tractors. A professional restorer knows who are the suppliers
of correct decals. Details, yes, but…. if I’m going to pay
top dollar it damned well be done correctly or I will deduct
value to correct it. So to be honest I was so disappointed I
didn’t even try to negotiate a deal. I looked at all the
other tractors for sale that were also supposedly
professionally restored and even with less detailed knowledge
on each model tractor I had enough experience to again detect
many of the same warts that I had uncovered on the target
tractor. BTW a couple of these tractors may end up on the
Barrett Jackson auction next year. The asking price on one of
the tractors, a Plain Jane late model JD B was somewhere
between 4 to 5 times it’s value even if it was restored
properly. Maybe they will find that one buyer from nowhere
who knows nothing about the tractor who will pay that kind of
money. But I can assure you it won’t be a knowledgeable JD
Tractor collector<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">There used to be a popular business
management consultant who wrote several books by the name of
Tom Peters. One of his sayings was: “ When I’m on an airplane
and I see a fold down tray on the seat back in front of me in
that is broken and dirty I immediately start to worry about
how well the engines have been maintained” So when one
observes defects and deficiencies on things we CAN see on the
exterior of the tractor there becomes an immediate concern
about what CAN’T be seen inside the tractor. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have found that most, not all, antique
tractor sellers are honest. IF, They have done all the work.
If they are not the original owners things can go downhill
real fast. They May have been misled when they purchased the
tractor. They may be honest with everything they say but
conveniently not mention things if you don’t ask. So bottom
line I get really cautious when I see pretty tractors for
sale. Is it pretty because there is lipstick on a pig or has a
real restoration been done? Unfortunately many of the pretty
tractors I have seen have been primarily cosmetically restored
but sold as complete mechanical and cosmetic restorations.
Makes one very cautious. Now an exception, 20 or more years
ago when I didn’t know “up from down” about antique tractors
and how much it cost to do a really thorough restoration I was
exposed to an antique tractor that was absolutely gorgeous and
was being sold as a “Frame UP” restoration. Supposedly every
bolt had been removed the tractor and every part either
replaced or restored to original or better condition. First of
all I had a hard time believing someone would even do that on
an antique tractor. The asking price was quite high but not
outrageous. I really wanted that tractor but my gut told me
to be careful. I walked away. Not too much later I was able
to talk to people who knew the seller and they verified
everything the seller was saying about the tractor from
personal experience. It was a “Frame Up” restoration. The
asking price actually WAS A BARGAIN AND I DIDN’T REALIZE IT.
Needless to say the tractor sold before I could get back to
it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So this goes both ways, the tractors may be
professionally restored and worth top dollar or just
cosmetically restored. I don’t think we or you know at this
point. So providing price guidance is really risky, especially
when there is a possibility of creating family conflicts.
Sometimes it is better to bow out.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><o:p> </o:p></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dean VP<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Snohomish, WA 98290<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,
the creed of ignorance, and gospel of envy, its inherent
virtue is the equal sharing of misery."<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">..Winston Churchill...<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> AT <<a
href="mailto:at-bounces@lists.antique-tractor.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">at-bounces@lists.antique-tractor.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Spencer Yost<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 18, 2020 7:55 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group <<a
href="mailto:at@lists.antique-tractor.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">at@lists.antique-tractor.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AT] Something to do<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I don’t think the guy is motivated to
mislead me, so when he said they’re all in good shape,
complete and well restored I took him at his word. The
pics seem to back him up on this. And I always couch my
reply in caveats so that there’s no misunderstanding.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I wasn’t asking for any kind of
professional opinion with an exact number, I was really
curious about opinions you folks have as to what’s
something like these tractors worth(ballpark) in your
neck of the woods (again taking the info at face value and
that they are reasonably well restored and running)? I
know there’s some details missing and we do not have all
the information. But seeing the pics of his shop and the
tractors they probably don’t lack for much.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I was also hoping to generate some
discussion as to how the pandemic and the prevalence of
online options may be affecting values in your area.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I was really just looking for some
rough info like Dave’s (drgerber) original post (Which I
appreciate-thanks!).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">PS. I did find out in a subsequent
email that if an auction takes place in person it will be
in Roxboro North Carolina - a good ways NW of Raleigh.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Spencer <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On Sep
18, 2020, at 10:26 PM, <a
href="mailto:drgerber@bright.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">drgerber@bright.net</a>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri
Light",sans-serif">I would agree with Dean
entirely. Hard to tell unless you hear each one
run, drive it around, etc. I was under the
impression that they were “properly restored”. Even
one that is professionally restored still need the
bugs worked out. So, hope they are well restored
and bring the family the desired results.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri
Light",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri
Light",sans-serif">Dave in Ohio</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri
Light",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> AT <<a
href="mailto:at-bounces@lists.antique-tractor.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">at-bounces@lists.antique-tractor.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jim Becker<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 18, 2020 8:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group
<<a href="mailto:at@lists.antique-tractor.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">at@lists.antique-tractor.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AT] Something to do<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Dean
really said it all here. These thoughts (and
maybe the words, verbatim) should be included
with any reply to a “what’s it worth” email.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">As to
this batch of tractors, a few observations.
They definitely have, or had oil in them. Oil
absorbing mats can be seen in a few places, as
can some oil puddles. Look under the
transmission of the 40. Looking at the Cub, I
see some lack of attention to detail. The
decals used are at least 10 years worth of
wrong for the apparent age of tractor. Maybe
they bought decals based on the serial number
and the serial number is older than a bunch of
the parts. Maybe it is a Heinz 57. I also
note several points of sloppiness in the
wiring. Likewise, the Super A has a bunch of
black paint that doesn’t belong there. I
can’t speak to anything about the John Deeres,
other than what is obvious to anyone.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Don’t get
me wrong. They are nice looking tractors that
would show well. But the bottom line is
still, don’t confuse an overly shiny paint job
with a first class restoration that would
command a high price.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Jim
Becker</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">
Dean VP </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Sent:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">
Friday, September 18, 2020 4:07 PM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">To:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">
'Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group'
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Subject:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">
Re: [AT] Something to do</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">After
getting fooled by some antique tractors which
looked really good but in reality needed a
huge amount of mechanical work I think it
would be unwise to make guesses as to value. I
have no valid reason to doubt that these have
been both mechanically as well as cosmetically
restored bujt…. And with no leaks on the
floor either says they have been meticulously
restored or they have no fluid in them.
BUT…. Have they been mechanically restored as
well as cosmetically restored? We don’t know
the answer to those questions. Without
knowing that answer any value placed on them
would be very dangerous. The real problem with
cosmetic only restoration is the cosmetic
restoration usually gets damaged doing the
mechanical restauration later an d then a new
cosmetic restoration is required. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Look
like pretty good cosmetic restorations
but….. Without further information I would
place a value quite low to protect against
potential future expense. AND… that might be
unfair to the family.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Dean
VP</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Snohomish,
WA 98290</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">"Socialism
is a philosophy of failure, the creed of
ignorance, and gospel of envy, its inherent
virtue is the equal sharing of misery."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">..Winston
Churchill...</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
AT mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:AT@lists.antique-tractor.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">AT@lists.antique-tractor.com</a><br>
<a
href="http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
AT mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:AT@lists.antique-tractor.com">AT@lists.antique-tractor.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com">http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>