[AT] Supposedly why our old tractors are not metric and a fairly simple tutorial

Tue Feb 25 13:52:56 PST 2020

Hey, Happy Birthday to you too Mike!

I will take a quick stab at an answer (then maybe think about it and
possibly come up with more, or better).  My first guess is that a lot of
major assemblies - like a car, or a machine tool, or a tractor, etc - are
subcontracted.  Some of the subs are using metric.  That could be
interpreted as imported, not necessarily, but probably yeah.

Steve O.

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 3:40 PM Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:

> Happy Birthday Steve, we share birthdays, except I am turning 53.  What
> does frustrate me is when manufacturers us a combination of SAE and metric,
> what's the point and why do engineers do this? I'd be interested in your
> opinion on this.
>
> Mike M
>
>
> On 2/25/2020 1:47 PM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
>
> As a matter of fact I turn 58 today, and I maintain my physical fitness to
> the best of my ability, so you're probably right in that regard.  But
> sorry, I reject the notion that bringing the wrong wrench is a
> blood-pressure-raising event, and I stand fast by my comment.  This simply
> isn't an argument against the metric system.  Seriously, just bring several
> wrenches...
>
> SO
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 1:28 PM <deanvp at att.net> wrote:
>
>> Steve,
>>
>>
>>
>> You may not have reached the age where getting down and under a vehicle
>> and then getting back up is a major effort.  Having the wrong wrench when I
>> get under there is not a happy event.  Should I give up DIY wrenching?  Not
>> a chance as long as my body is still warm.  If I didn’t keep trying to do
>> this stuff I would have been 6’ under a long time ago,
>>
>>
>>
>> Dean VP
>>
>> Apache Junction, AZ
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> *On Behalf Of *Stephen
>> Offiler
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 25, 2020 8:18 AM
>> *To:* Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group <
>> at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AT] Supposedly why our old tractors are not metric and a
>> fairly simple tutorial
>>
>>
>>
>> You might want to re-think the whole DIY wrenching thing if that's all it
>> takes to get your blood pressure up.
>>
>>
>>
>> SO
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 10:13 AM ustonThomas Mehrkam <
>> tmehrkam at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> It was a evil plot to sell us another set of tools. The proof is I still
>> need two sets to service my modern pickup.
>>
>>
>>
>> It sells a lot of blood pressure meds. Especially when I crawl under the
>> darn thing only to find that one d at m bolt is metric causing a cussing
>> wrench throwing fit as I crawl back out to get that evil metric wrench.
>>
>> Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android
>> <https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers&af_wl=ym&af_sub1=Internal&af_sub2=Global_YGrowth&af_sub3=EmailSignature>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 3:40 AM, Thomas Martin
>>
>> <tmartin at xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>>
>> > On 25 February 2020 at 17:12 John Hall <jtchall at nc.rr.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Don't know why they couldn't change pipe threads, after all the rest of
>> > the planet uses 60 deg, not 55 for the British threads. Can't really
>> see
>> > how it is simpler than what we use. I mean how exactly do the Japanese
>> > explain such? Never seen a German print in inches either for that
>> > matter. If metric is so much better, then go all in I say.
>>
>> Well the rest of the world for a long time was British or used British
>> technology
>> before Sellars came along with his 60º thread form in the US. The US
>> wasn't a great exporter
>> at the time, focusing more on internal expansion & self-sufficiency
>> >
>> > You missed the part about leaving out the bastard pipe threads, didn't
>> > you? We did so much hydraulic work at one point that all I stocked was
>> > NPTF, it works for NPT.  As you know, NPT covers the vast majority,
>> > while NPTF will cover the majority of whats left. The scraps can be
>> left
>> > to those who specialize in oddities.
>> >
>> > Never needed an IH bearing that I couldn't source from wherever. The
>> > only roller bearing I ever needed that was manufacture specific was the
>> > plunger bearing on a New Holland baler. Motion industries finally was
>> > able to cross it, but I couldn't find it any where else, not even
>> > aftermarket ag parts. And the bearing housing had to come from New
>> > Holland, nothing even close. That set up cost me close to $300
>> >
>> I think there is a slight time frame difference in our work experience,
>> My experience with Cat, IH, & AC was in the 60s & 70 and included
>> machinery built in the 50s. Cat & IH did insist on bearings that were
>> only Cat & IH inclusive, whereas AC crawlers that used more Timken style
>> bearings, could be sourced from any bearing supply co. Five times cheaper
>> than Cat Or IH equivalents.
>> An interesting aside was that, rarely was there a need for machining with
>> AC, Cat or, IH as regards remedial repair of parts. Good designs leave
>> little
>> room for improvement.
>>
>> > We have an entire section of bastard taps at work, it has just as many
>> > oddball metrics as it does english. It all depends on the industries
>> you
>> > support as to what is in your tool crib.
>> >
>> Around here, its fruit and meat processing.
>> At the local Heinz cannery, all the peach & pear lines were American
>> sourced,
>> and the makers delighted in shaft sizes like 1-7/16", 1-9/16" & 1-15/16"
>> with ODs to match. Only source was the manufacturer.
>> Another delight was the spaghetti extruder, it had a 50hp motor driving
>> the extruder through reduction gears, every every shaft was a nominal
>> size +
>> a 1/16" Guess where the bearings had to come from. It had one bad design
>> fault in that the heaviest reduction had no hunting teeth, and it had some
>> very bad wear patterns revealed on dismantling, had a blank forged in
>> Australia,
>> it was about 600mm with a 152mm face. :-)
>> >
>> > I've found that engineers don't always make stuff weird so you have to
>> > buy from them, its often so you don't make a substitution that
>> > compromises the design. But there are some that need a plate glass
>> > stomach.....
>> "Plate glass stomach"?
>> Don't know that saying, although I have modified modified maker's efforts
>> for the better, when their designs were found wanting. Flattering when
>> they
>> come up with the same improvement...
>>
>> Tom
>> >
>> > John
>> >
>> > On 2/24/2020 10:41 PM, Thomas Martin wrote:
>> > >> On 25 February 2020 at 15:17 John Hall <jtchall at nc.rr.com> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Fun fact. Did you know metric pipe threads are actually in inches?
>> They
>> > >> are actually 55 deg threadform (British Whitworth) but the pitch is
>> in
>> > >> metric. And the real fun part is that the rest of the planet can't
>> even
>> > >> decide how to spec them on drawing/print/blueprint. Different
>> countries
>> > >> have different designations for the same thing. Off the top of my
>> head,
>> > >> I think there are a combined 7 different ways of designating metric
>> pipe
>> > >> threads (taper and straight), as opposed to just 2. Now we won't
>> split
>> > >> hairs with short projection, dryseal or other specialty threads--lets
>> > >> stick to 99.999% of pipe threads.
>> > >>
>> > >> FWIW, I have 30 years in a machine shop and have continually used
>> both
>> > >> english and metric without an issue. Its the rest of the planet that
>> > >> makes a big ordeal out of it, we just grab a print and go with it.
>> > >> English, German, Japanese--its all the same--until we have to use
>> > >> Translate Google to figure out the notes.
>> > >>
>> > >> One more fun fact. Next time you need some roller bearings for your
>> old
>> > >> tractor and start measuring them only to find they aren't exactly
>> > >> english, convert them to metric--you might ought to sit down first.
>> > >>
>> > >> I won't even get into European conduit threads--I've only had to do
>> them
>> > >> twice.
>> > >>
>> > >> John Hall
>> > >>
>> > > Well, John
>> > > Europe did adopt BSP (British Standard Pipe) threads
>> > > back in the 19th century, difficult to change horses now.
>> > > Quite a simple setup compared to the American system!
>> > > Did you know that the US has 11 diffent derivatives of
>> > > National Pipe threads?
>> > > As for 11-1/2 tpi NPT, I bet many a lathe manufacturer
>> > > swore when Norton invented the quick change gearbox for
>> > > lathes and provision had to be made for that.
>> > > In fact would say I have cut more peculiar threads of US
>> > > origin that elsewhere.
>> > > That goes for bearings also. Both Caterpillar and IH used to
>> > > get bearings, especially taper-roller, ground to  their
>> > > specific sizes, so that only they could supply, at a cost
>> > > 5 to 10 times the cost of a standard size! Extortionate!
>> > > Competition finally forced them into standardization in the finish.
>> > > FMC was another who engaged in the practice in another field.
>> > >
>> > > Tom
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > AT mailing list
>> > > AT at lists.antique-tractor.com
>> > > http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com
>>
>>
>> >
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