[AT] Supposedly why our old tractors are not metric and a fairly simple tutorial
Mike M
meulenms at gmx.com
Tue Feb 25 12:40:32 PST 2020
Happy Birthday Steve, we share birthdays, except I am turning 53. What
does frustrate me is when manufacturers us a combination of SAE and
metric, what's the point and why do engineers do this? I'd be interested
in your opinion on this.
Mike M
On 2/25/2020 1:47 PM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
> As a matter of fact I turn 58 today, and I maintain my physical
> fitness to the best of my ability, so you're probably right in that
> regard. But sorry, I reject the notion that bringing the wrong wrench
> is a blood-pressure-raising event, and I stand fast by my comment.
> This simply isn't an argument against the metric system. Seriously,
> just bring several wrenches...
>
> SO
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 1:28 PM <deanvp at att.net
> <mailto:deanvp at att.net>> wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
> You may not have reached the age where getting down and under a
> vehicle and then getting back up is a major effort. Having the
> wrong wrench when I get under there is not a happy event. Should
> I give up DIY wrenching? Not a chance as long as my body is still
> warm. If I didn’t keep trying to do this stuff I would have been
> 6’ under a long time ago,
>
> Dean VP
>
> Apache Junction, AZ
>
> *From:* AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> <mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com>> *On Behalf Of
> *Stephen Offiler
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 25, 2020 8:18 AM
> *To:* Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group
> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com <mailto:at at lists.antique-tractor.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: [AT] Supposedly why our old tractors are not metric
> and a fairly simple tutorial
>
> You might want to re-think the whole DIY wrenching thing if that's
> all it takes to get your blood pressure up.
>
> SO
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 10:13 AM ustonThomas Mehrkam
> <tmehrkam at sbcglobal.net <mailto:tmehrkam at sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
>
> It was a evil plot to sell us another set of tools. The proof
> is I still need two sets to service my modern pickup.
>
> It sells a lot of blood pressure meds. Especially when I crawl
> under the darn thing only to find that one d at m bolt is metric
> causing a cussing wrench throwing fit as I crawl back out to
> get that evil metric wrench.
>
> Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android
> <https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers&af_wl=ym&af_sub1=Internal&af_sub2=Global_YGrowth&af_sub3=EmailSignature>
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 3:40 AM, Thomas Martin
>
> <tmartin at xtra.co.nz <mailto:tmartin at xtra.co.nz>> wrote:
>
>
> > On 25 February 2020 at 17:12 John Hall
> <jtchall at nc.rr.com <mailto:jtchall at nc.rr.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Don't know why they couldn't change pipe threads, after
> all the rest of
> > the planet uses 60 deg, not 55 for the British threads.
> Can't really see
> > how it is simpler than what we use. I mean how exactly
> do the Japanese
> > explain such? Never seen a German print in inches either
> for that
> > matter. If metric is so much better, then go all in I say.
>
> Well the rest of the world for a long time was British or
> used British technology
> before Sellars came along with his 60º thread form in the
> US. The US wasn't a great exporter
> at the time, focusing more on internal expansion &
> self-sufficiency
> >
> > You missed the part about leaving out the bastard pipe
> threads, didn't
> > you? We did so much hydraulic work at one point that all
> I stocked was
> > NPTF, it works for NPT. As you know, NPT covers the
> vast majority,
> > while NPTF will cover the majority of whats left. The
> scraps can be left
> > to those who specialize in oddities.
> >
> > Never needed an IH bearing that I couldn't source from
> wherever. The
> > only roller bearing I ever needed that was manufacture
> specific was the
> > plunger bearing on a New Holland baler. Motion
> industries finally was
> > able to cross it, but I couldn't find it any where else,
> not even
> > aftermarket ag parts. And the bearing housing had to
> come from New
> > Holland, nothing even close. That set up cost me close
> to $300
> >
> I think there is a slight time frame difference in our
> work experience,
> My experience with Cat, IH, & AC was in the 60s & 70 and
> included
> machinery built in the 50s. Cat & IH did insist on
> bearings that were
> only Cat & IH inclusive, whereas AC crawlers that used
> more Timken style
> bearings, could be sourced from any bearing supply co.
> Five times cheaper
> than Cat Or IH equivalents.
> An interesting aside was that, rarely was there a need for
> machining with
> AC, Cat or, IH as regards remedial repair of parts. Good
> designs leave little
> room for improvement.
>
> > We have an entire section of bastard taps at work, it
> has just as many
> > oddball metrics as it does english. It all depends on
> the industries you
> > support as to what is in your tool crib.
> >
> Around here, its fruit and meat processing.
> At the local Heinz cannery, all the peach & pear lines
> were American sourced,
> and the makers delighted in shaft sizes like 1-7/16",
> 1-9/16" & 1-15/16"
> with ODs to match. Only source was the manufacturer.
> Another delight was the spaghetti extruder, it had a 50hp
> motor driving
> the extruder through reduction gears, every every shaft
> was a nominal size +
> a 1/16" Guess where the bearings had to come from. It had
> one bad design
> fault in that the heaviest reduction had no hunting teeth,
> and it had some
> very bad wear patterns revealed on dismantling, had a
> blank forged in Australia,
> it was about 600mm with a 152mm face. :-)
> >
> > I've found that engineers don't always make stuff weird
> so you have to
> > buy from them, its often so you don't make a
> substitution that
> > compromises the design. But there are some that need a
> plate glass
> > stomach.....
> "Plate glass stomach"?
> Don't know that saying, although I have modified modified
> maker's efforts
> for the better, when their designs were found wanting.
> Flattering when they
> come up with the same improvement...
>
> Tom
> >
> > John
> >
> > On 2/24/2020 10:41 PM, Thomas Martin wrote:
> > >> On 25 February 2020 at 15:17 John Hall
> <jtchall at nc.rr.com <mailto:jtchall at nc.rr.com>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Fun fact. Did you know metric pipe threads are
> actually in inches? They
> > >> are actually 55 deg threadform (British Whitworth)
> but the pitch is in
> > >> metric. And the real fun part is that the rest of the
> planet can't even
> > >> decide how to spec them on drawing/print/blueprint.
> Different countries
> > >> have different designations for the same thing. Off
> the top of my head,
> > >> I think there are a combined 7 different ways of
> designating metric pipe
> > >> threads (taper and straight), as opposed to just 2.
> Now we won't split
> > >> hairs with short projection, dryseal or other
> specialty threads--lets
> > >> stick to 99.999% of pipe threads.
> > >>
> > >> FWIW, I have 30 years in a machine shop and have
> continually used both
> > >> english and metric without an issue. Its the rest of
> the planet that
> > >> makes a big ordeal out of it, we just grab a print
> and go with it.
> > >> English, German, Japanese--its all the same--until we
> have to use
> > >> Translate Google to figure out the notes.
> > >>
> > >> One more fun fact. Next time you need some roller
> bearings for your old
> > >> tractor and start measuring them only to find they
> aren't exactly
> > >> english, convert them to metric--you might ought to
> sit down first.
> > >>
> > >> I won't even get into European conduit threads--I've
> only had to do them
> > >> twice.
> > >>
> > >> John Hall
> > >>
> > > Well, John
> > > Europe did adopt BSP (British Standard Pipe) threads
> > > back in the 19th century, difficult to change horses now.
> > > Quite a simple setup compared to the American system!
> > > Did you know that the US has 11 diffent derivatives of
> > > National Pipe threads?
> > > As for 11-1/2 tpi NPT, I bet many a lathe manufacturer
> > > swore when Norton invented the quick change gearbox for
> > > lathes and provision had to be made for that.
> > > In fact would say I have cut more peculiar threads of US
> > > origin that elsewhere.
> > > That goes for bearings also. Both Caterpillar and IH
> used to
> > > get bearings, especially taper-roller, ground to their
> > > specific sizes, so that only they could supply, at a cost
> > > 5 to 10 times the cost of a standard size! Extortionate!
> > > Competition finally forced them into standardization
> in the finish.
> > > FMC was another who engaged in the practice in another
> field.
> > >
> > > Tom
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
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