[AT] Supposedly why our old tractors are not metric and a fairly simple tutorial

Tue Feb 25 23:11:40 PST 2020

Steve,

Let’s hope we can discuss this again  when you reach my current age of 79 getting close to  80.  It doesn’t seem to matter what or how many tools I bring along under, there is one that I need that isn’t with me.   But…. Sometimes I’m laying on it though and don’t realize it. 😊    I now schedule my submarine trips around my wife’s schedule so she can be my tool gopher when I’m down under. Makes things a whole lot easier. It is amazing how quickly she is learning the correct tool names that do not include nasty adjectives. 😊

Dean VP

Apache Junction, AZ

From: AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> On Behalf Of Stephen Offiler
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 11:47 AM
To: Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Subject: Re: [AT] Supposedly why our old tractors are not metric and a fairly simple tutorial

As a matter of fact I turn 58 today, and I maintain my physical fitness to the best of my ability, so you're probably right in that regard.  But sorry, I reject the notion that bringing the wrong wrench is a blood-pressure-raising event, and I stand fast by my comment.  This simply isn't an argument against the metric system.  Seriously, just bring several wrenches...

SO

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 1:28 PM <deanvp at att.net <mailto:deanvp at att.net> > wrote:

Steve, 

You may not have reached the age where getting down and under a vehicle and then getting back up is a major effort.  Having the wrong wrench when I get under there is not a happy event.  Should I give up DIY wrenching?  Not a chance as long as my body is still warm.  If I didn’t keep trying to do this stuff I would have been 6’ under a long time ago,  

Dean VP

Apache Junction, AZ

From: AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com <mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> > On Behalf Of Stephen Offiler
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 8:18 AM
To: Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group <at at lists.antique-tractor.com <mailto:at at lists.antique-tractor.com> >
Subject: Re: [AT] Supposedly why our old tractors are not metric and a fairly simple tutorial

You might want to re-think the whole DIY wrenching thing if that's all it takes to get your blood pressure up.

SO

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 10:13 AM ustonThomas Mehrkam <tmehrkam at sbcglobal.net <mailto:tmehrkam at sbcglobal.net> > wrote:

It was a evil plot to sell us another set of tools. The proof is I still need two sets to service my modern pickup.

It sells a lot of blood pressure meds. Especially when I crawl under the darn thing only to find that one d at m bolt is metric causing a cussing wrench throwing fit as I crawl back out to get that evil metric wrench.

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On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 3:40 AM, Thomas Martin

<tmartin at xtra.co.nz <mailto:tmartin at xtra.co.nz> > wrote:

> On 25 February 2020 at 17:12 John Hall <jtchall at nc.rr.com <mailto:jtchall at nc.rr.com> > wrote:
> 
> 
> Don't know why they couldn't change pipe threads, after all the rest of 
> the planet uses 60 deg, not 55 for the British threads. Can't really see 
> how it is simpler than what we use. I mean how exactly do the Japanese 
> explain such? Never seen a German print in inches either for that 
> matter. If metric is so much better, then go all in I say.

Well the rest of the world for a long time was British or used British technology
before Sellars came along with his 60º thread form in the US. The US wasn't a great exporter
at the time, focusing more on internal expansion & self-sufficiency
> 
> You missed the part about leaving out the bastard pipe threads, didn't 
> you? We did so much hydraulic work at one point that all I stocked was 
> NPTF, it works for NPT.  As you know, NPT covers the vast majority, 
> while NPTF will cover the majority of whats left. The scraps can be left 
> to those who specialize in oddities.
> 
> Never needed an IH bearing that I couldn't source from wherever. The 
> only roller bearing I ever needed that was manufacture specific was the 
> plunger bearing on a New Holland baler. Motion industries finally was 
> able to cross it, but I couldn't find it any where else, not even 
> aftermarket ag parts. And the bearing housing had to come from New 
> Holland, nothing even close. That set up cost me close to $300
> 
I think there is a slight time frame difference in our work experience,
My experience with Cat, IH, & AC was in the 60s & 70 and included 
machinery built in the 50s. Cat & IH did insist on bearings that were 
only Cat & IH inclusive, whereas AC crawlers that used more Timken style
bearings, could be sourced from any bearing supply co. Five times cheaper
than Cat Or IH equivalents.
An interesting aside was that, rarely was there a need for machining with
AC, Cat or, IH as regards remedial repair of parts. Good designs leave little
room for improvement.

> We have an entire section of bastard taps at work, it has just as many 
> oddball metrics as it does english. It all depends on the industries you 
> support as to what is in your tool crib.
>
Around here, its fruit and meat processing. 
At the local Heinz cannery, all the peach & pear lines were American sourced,
and the makers delighted in shaft sizes like 1-7/16", 1-9/16" & 1-15/16"
with ODs to match. Only source was the manufacturer.
Another delight was the spaghetti extruder, it had a 50hp motor driving 
the extruder through reduction gears, every every shaft was a nominal size +
a 1/16" Guess where the bearings had to come from. It had one bad design 
fault in that the heaviest reduction had no hunting teeth, and it had some
very bad wear patterns revealed on dismantling, had a blank forged in Australia,
it was about 600mm with a 152mm face. :-)
> 
> I've found that engineers don't always make stuff weird so you have to 
> buy from them, its often so you don't make a substitution that 
> compromises the design. But there are some that need a plate glass 
> stomach.....
"Plate glass stomach"? 
Don't know that saying, although I have modified modified maker's efforts
for the better, when their designs were found wanting. Flattering when they
come up with the same improvement...

Tom
> 
> John
> 
> On 2/24/2020 10:41 PM, Thomas Martin wrote:
> >> On 25 February 2020 at 15:17 John Hall <jtchall at nc.rr.com <mailto:jtchall at nc.rr.com> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Fun fact. Did you know metric pipe threads are actually in inches? They
> >> are actually 55 deg threadform (British Whitworth) but the pitch is in
> >> metric. And the real fun part is that the rest of the planet can't even
> >> decide how to spec them on drawing/print/blueprint. Different countries
> >> have different designations for the same thing. Off the top of my head,
> >> I think there are a combined 7 different ways of designating metric pipe
> >> threads (taper and straight), as opposed to just 2. Now we won't split
> >> hairs with short projection, dryseal or other specialty threads--lets
> >> stick to 99.999% of pipe threads.
> >>
> >> FWIW, I have 30 years in a machine shop and have continually used both
> >> english and metric without an issue. Its the rest of the planet that
> >> makes a big ordeal out of it, we just grab a print and go with it.
> >> English, German, Japanese--its all the same--until we have to use
> >> Translate Google to figure out the notes.
> >>
> >> One more fun fact. Next time you need some roller bearings for your old
> >> tractor and start measuring them only to find they aren't exactly
> >> english, convert them to metric--you might ought to sit down first.
> >>
> >> I won't even get into European conduit threads--I've only had to do them
> >> twice.
> >>
> >> John Hall
> >>
> > Well, John
> > Europe did adopt BSP (British Standard Pipe) threads
> > back in the 19th century, difficult to change horses now.
> > Quite a simple setup compared to the American system!
> > Did you know that the US has 11 diffent derivatives of
> > National Pipe threads?
> > As for 11-1/2 tpi NPT, I bet many a lathe manufacturer
> > swore when Norton invented the quick change gearbox for
> > lathes and provision had to be made for that.
> > In fact would say I have cut more peculiar threads of US
> > origin that elsewhere.
> > That goes for bearings also. Both Caterpillar and IH used to
> > get bearings, especially taper-roller, ground to  their
> > specific sizes, so that only they could supply, at a cost
> > 5 to 10 times the cost of a standard size! Extortionate!
> > Competition finally forced them into standardization in the finish.
> > FMC was another who engaged in the practice in another field.
> >
> > Tom
> > _______________________________________________
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