[AT] Statistics In Tractor Manufacturing Was Bicycle Program

Thu Sep 19 08:08:36 PDT 2019

Dean, the piston may have smacked the valve while it was stuck open.
Probably happened at shutdown while it was hot and there may have been a
backfire. Had it happen a couple times on one particular Briggs here (and a
second puked the head gasket). The valve guide sticks to the valve; I even
tried roll-pinning the guide in the head and it still loosed up.

Finally started replacing them with Longcin engines; the first one has been
good so far and another is soon to be ordered for a friend. They have
external oil filters (something I appreciate). And my son (12) is getting
pretty decent at small engine swaps (and wants to start on that old Mustang
out back) and loves driving mower tractors. :)

I'm looking for a larger deck if you have a spare. We have a 38" on one
that we 'd like to upgrade. :)

Ken in AZ

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 7:52 AM <deanvp at att.net> wrote:

> I just purchased a Parts GT235 JD Garden Tractor that was advertised as
> needing a replacement engine amongst other things. Had a really good 48”
> deck and really good tires too. Has an 18HP Vanguard replacement Briggs and
> Stratton engine in it. No compression on #1 Cylinder. Pulled Tapped Cover,
> Intake valve not closing.  Couldn’t pull it closed.  Removed head and the
> problem was a bent valve stem. The push rods were not bent. Haven’t figured
> out how that valve stem got bent. I have been told that if the Briggs
> engine gets too hot the valve will stick and bend. How does a valve stem
> get bent without bending the push rod.   Sum Ting Wong.  Just a bad valve???
>
>
>
> Dean VP
>
> Snohomish, WA 98290
>
>
>
> *From:* AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> *On Behalf Of *Jim
> Becker
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 18, 2019 5:28 AM
> *To:* Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group <at at lists.antique-tractor.com
> >
> *Subject:* Re: [AT] Statistics In Tractor Manufacturing Was Bicycle
> Program
>
>
>
> Henry, do you also find the rocker arm bracket bolt loose when the push
> rods get bent?  As Steve pointed out, it seems unlikely that sticky valves
> would result in 2 bent push rods at/near the same time.  My knowledge of
> the Kawasaki V-twin consists of what I read in this thread.  But I wonder
> if the failure mode is overheating allowing the rocker arm bracket to get
> loose, allowing the push rods to get loose and bend.  Maybe the fix is to
> add a bend-over tab type retainer to the bolt.
>
>
>
> Jim Becker
>
>
>
> *From:* Stephen Offiler
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 18, 2019 3:44 AM
>
> *To:* Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AT] Statistics In Tractor Manufacturing Was Bicycle
> Program
>
>
>
> Henry, is yours is a Kawasaki V-twin?  Are you just replacing the bent
> pushrods?   Based on the Internet chatter I've read on the lawn forums, the
> root cause is sticky valves, and the permanent solution is a new head
> (comes complete with valve guides and seats) and new valves.  That's what
> I'm doing right now, reusing only the valve springs, keepers, and rocker
> arms.  In my case, it wasn't even a question, because my head gasket was
> blown, so that head is certainly warped too.
>
>
>
> These engines are sensitive to proper cooling airflow.  Again with the
> lawn forums, seems I'm far from the only one who has had an overheat
> without realizing it.  Mostly it's grass clippings that cause the problem
> although mine was mouse nest.  People talk about removing the shrouds every
> X hours to clean the fins.    Actually a really easy job.  The bolt holes
> in the main shroud are slots, you just loosen the fasteners and pull it
> straight off.
>
>
>
> SO
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 9:03 PM Henry Miller <hank at millerfarm.com> wrote:
>
> I've had the bent pushrod 3 times now in mine, it has always been both,
> though I too can't figure out why both should go at the same time.
>
>
>
> --
>
>   Henry Miller
>
>   hank at millerfarm.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, at 8:27 AM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
>
> Mine is a long story.  All my stories are long ;-)
>
>
>
> Gravely zero-turn with 24HP Kawasaki V-twin.  I keep it maintained by the
> book, and use it pretty hard but not abused.  It ends up being stored in
> places where mice are just going to be present, no way to eradicate them
> (and yes there are cats around).  Quite a while ago, could have been early
> '18 or back even further in '17, I was checking the air filter (which I do
> roughly every 3-4 mows) and found it had a huge hole chewed in it.  That
> means I probably ran the machine unfiltered a couple times.  Suspicious and
> worried, I pulled the shrouds, and found the #1 cylinder fins just packed
> with slow-roasted mouse-nest.  Most likely, I ran it a couple times with
> impaired cooling on that cylinder, and it overheated.  I cleaned it all out
> and went back to mowing.  It ran well, plenty of power, but I did notice an
> increase in oil consumption.  I wondered if that was the overheating, or
> the ingestion of unfiltered dusty air.  I didn't really feel like tearing
> it down so I just kept running it.  And, with an eye on oil level, it did
> fine for 1-2 years, until just recently.  It coughed and started running
> poorly.  Drove it into the shop and found #1 was barely warm; it was only
> running on #2.  Tore into #1 and found both rods bent plus the bolt holding
> the "Rocker arm bracket" was very loose.  What the internet tells me is
> that overheat leads to sticky valves and when a valve sticks the pushrod
> gets out of place and bends.   That sounds very plausible but I'm still not
> sure how I bent BOTH of them and how that loose rocker bracket happened.
> Oh and the head gasket is blown on that side, which probably explains the
> increased oil consumption.  I am replacing the whole head, pushrods,
> valves, valve seals, gaskets.  Cost about $300 in parts online.  Waiting
> right now for parts to arrive and the grass is still growing.
>
>
>
> SO
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 8:46 AM Cecil Bearden <crbearden at copper.net>
> wrote:
>
> The only time I bent a push rod was when I over revved the engine.  It was
> on a 292 Ford V-8 in an old 57 4wd F100.  I got stuck and had to give it
> the gas to get out.  I straightened the rod out on an anvil and it i still
> running...
>
> Cecil
>
> On 9/17/2019 6:03 AM, Henry Miller wrote:
>
> My zero turn is in the shop with the same bent pushrods issue. Second time
> this summer. I'm thinking about a different engine... I have the
> replacement rods, but I found a small spring by the valves that doesn't
> come from anywhere obvious. I'll have to tear into it more now to see what
> else is wrong.
>
>
>
> --
>
>   Henry Miller
>
>   hank at millerfarm.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 16, 2019, at 3:51 PM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
>
> Mike M - that just happened to me yesterday!  I've got a Gravely zero-turn
> with Kawasaki V-twin that bent a pushrod at 306 hours (known issue,
> easy-ish fix).  It is sitting right now waiting for parts to arrive.
> Yesterday, I was walking past and happened to look down and saw 600 and
> something hours on the meter, which was odd but didn't quite register until
> it clicked over another tenth digit while I was watching.  That happens
> once every 6 minutes, so I got real lucky to see it.  I guess the key got
> bumped somehow during disassembly  Now, all the service reminders are
> saying "CHG NOW".  I'm doing engine oil and air filter now anyway, but
> losing the service reminder on the hydro units bugs me.  It added 337 hours
> sitting still (divide by 24 to see how long I've been waiting for parts,
> and therefore how long the grass is getting!).  Since I'm not likely to
> ever sell this machine, I don't really care that much about the fake hours.
>
>
>
> Steve O.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 4:09 PM Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
>
> I have a Scag zero turn that I bought new, I put about 350 hours on it
> over the course of several years.  When I parked it this last fall, I
> accidentally left the key on, so when I went to start it this Spring I had
> 3500 hours on it. Fortunately my daughter works at the dealer so I was able
> to buy a new one.
>
>
>
> Mike M
>
>
>
>
>
> On 9/16/2019 2:42 PM, Spencer Yost wrote:
>
> New tractors have hours embedded in the computer. Replacement computers
> are easily spotted by the metadata in the computer.   So for approximately
> the last 10-15 years we have a reliable indicator of usage or computer
> replacement/tampering on most models.
>
>
>
> However, being able to obtain the equipment and software necessary to read
> the computer is still a sticking point and at the heart of the right to
> repair lawsuits going around.   These lawsuits are extending to other
> equipment and devices. So farmers were actually at the forefront of this
> movement.
>
>
>
> Ok fine print for the following:
>
>
>
> This is not a political statement.   I absolutely positively never
> endorse any presidential candidate publicly on this list nor should the
> following be construed as support for the  candidates mentioned.  I only
> add the following statements and link as a way to let y’all know that our
> frustrations with equipment are being heard by some.  Ok enough with the
> fine print:
>
>
>
> Elizabeth Warren added support for the right to repair movement as one of
> her written policy planks - To my knowledge the only one but the movement
> should grow to the point candidates probably won’t be able to ignore it.  Here’s
> Warren’s policy paper on agriculture in general but in that she
> specifically mentions right to repair:
>
>
>
>
> https://medium.com/@teamwarren/leveling-the-playing-field-for-americas-family-farmers-823d1994f067
>
>
>
>
>
> I am watching the right to repair movement closely.
>
>
>
> Spencer
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2019, at 10:29 AM, Al Jones <farmallsupera1 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> No.  If your tachometer goes bad, you get a new one with 0000.0 hours.
>
>
>
> Al
>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 11:52 PM Cecil Bearden <crbearden at copper.net>
> wrote:
>
> Probably not, and the mileage on the title of an auto or truck is
>
> nothing that can be relied on...   I used to be able to tell by the wear
>
> on floorboards, rust, paint scratches etc if a trucks mileage was
>
> right.  Tractors are a different animal.  Usually just change the tires
>
> and if repainted, change the hoses and belts, new seat and cab interior
>
> and it is a new tractor.
>
>
>
> Cecil
>
>
>
> On 9/15/2019 8:36 PM, Jack wrote:
>
> > Tractors are not titled. Automobiles and trucks are. When you sell an
> auto, you record the mileage at time of sale and your signature. Is it even
> illegal to alter the hour meter on a tractor?
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> On Behalf Of Cecil
> Bearden
>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2019 7:33 PM
>
> > To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com
>
> > Subject: Re: [AT] Statistics In Tractor Manufacturing Was Bicycle Program
>
> >
>
> > The New Holland Money Pit is what it is because somewhere in its history
> the hour meter was turned back.  New tires were installed and it was made
> to look like a 5 yr old tractor with about 200 hrs per year.
>
> > Cecil
>
> >
>
> > On 9/14/2019 10:26 AM, James Peck wrote:
>
> >> Some years ago I did participate in an academic Statistical Quality
> Control course. Much of the course involved the Weibull Distribution. If I
> remember correctly, the Weibull Curve predicted the lifespan of a
> manufactured assembly such as a tractor.  It appears to be a gift from the
> mathematicians.
>
> >>
>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weibull_distribution
>
> >>
>
> >> The same distribution probably predicts that Cecil’s New Holland money
> pit will continue to be so and will suffer an early demise.
>
> >>
>
> >> [Stephen Offiler] I never took a whole semester of Statistics.
> Instead, we had a course called Engineering Experimentation, which was
> heavy on experiment design and statistical data analysis.  That gave me a
> very good appreciation for the practical application of statistics.   Out
> in the real world, on-the-job training programs in quality control
> principles in manufacturing (Deming, Juran, Lean Six Sigma) continued to
> solidify the practical applications.
>
> >>
>
> >> [Cecil Bearden] Steve: I nearly flunked statistics I only passed
> because I was a graduating senior.  However, I did flunk Rocks & Clods 2124
> and had to find another 4 hours to graduate.   Then 35 years later I retire
> as a Geotechnical engineer designing foundations. !!!
>
> >>
>
> >> [Stephen Offiler] I'm not sure if that is an interesting statistic, or
> simply predictable statistically.  All you just said is that a bell-curve
> distribution for 2-year degrees overlaps a bell-curve distribution for
> 4-year degrees.
>
> >>
>
> >> [ James Peck] The interesting statistic is that some technical 2 year
> programs have higher starting incomes than many 4 year degree programs.
> People who complete such a program can later take a 2+2 program to get a
> four year degree if they choose.
>
> >>
>
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