[AT] Statistics In Tractor Manufacturing Was Bicycle Program
Cecil Bearden
crbearden at copper.net
Thu Sep 19 06:14:54 PDT 2019
Would the piston hit the valve if the valve sticks??
Cecil
On 9/19/2019 1:34 AM, deanvp at att.net wrote:
>
> I just purchased a Parts GT235 JD Garden Tractor that was advertised
> as needing a replacement engine amongst other things. Had a really
> good 48” deck and really good tires too. Has an 18HP Vanguard
> replacement Briggs and Stratton engine in it. No compression on #1
> Cylinder. Pulled Tapped Cover, Intake valve not closing. Couldn’t
> pull it closed. Removed head and the problem was a bent valve stem.
> The push rods were not bent. Haven’t figured out how that valve stem
> got bent. I have been told that if the Briggs engine gets too hot the
> valve will stick and bend. How does a valve stem get bent without
> bending the push rod. Sum Ting Wong. Just a bad valve???
>
> Dean VP
>
> Snohomish, WA 98290
>
> *From:* AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> *On Behalf Of *Jim
> Becker
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 18, 2019 5:28 AM
> *To:* Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group
> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [AT] Statistics In Tractor Manufacturing Was Bicycle
> Program
>
> Henry, do you also find the rocker arm bracket bolt loose when the
> push rods get bent? As Steve pointed out, it seems unlikely that
> sticky valves would result in 2 bent push rods at/near the same time.
> My knowledge of the Kawasaki V-twin consists of what I read in this
> thread. But I wonder if the failure mode is overheating allowing the
> rocker arm bracket to get loose, allowing the push rods to get loose
> and bend. Maybe the fix is to add a bend-over tab type retainer to the
> bolt.
>
> Jim Becker
>
> *From:*Stephen Offiler
>
> *Sent:*Wednesday, September 18, 2019 3:44 AM
>
> *To:*Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group
>
> *Subject:*Re: [AT] Statistics In Tractor Manufacturing Was Bicycle Program
>
> Henry, is yours is a Kawasaki V-twin? Are you just replacing the bent
> pushrods? Based on the Internet chatter I've read on the lawn
> forums, the root cause is sticky valves, and the permanent solution is
> a new head (comes complete with valve guides and seats) and new
> valves. That's what I'm doing right now, reusing only the valve
> springs, keepers, and rocker arms. In my case, it wasn't even a
> question, because my head gasket was blown, so that head is certainly
> warped too.
>
> These engines are sensitive to proper cooling airflow. Again with the
> lawn forums, seems I'm far from the only one who has had an overheat
> without realizing it. Mostly it's grass clippings that cause the
> problem although mine was mouse nest. People talk about removing the
> shrouds every X hours to clean the fins. Actually a really easy
> job. The bolt holes in the main shroud are slots, you just loosen the
> fasteners and pull it straight off.
>
> SO
>
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 9:03 PM Henry Miller <hank at millerfarm.com
> <mailto:hank at millerfarm.com>> wrote:
>
> I've had the bent pushrod 3 times now in mine, it has always been
> both, though I too can't figure out why both should go at the same
> time.
>
> --
>
> Henry Miller
>
> hank at millerfarm.com <mailto:hank at millerfarm.com>
>
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, at 8:27 AM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
>
> Mine is a long story. All my stories are long ;-)
>
> Gravely zero-turn with 24HP Kawasaki V-twin. I keep it
> maintained by the book, and use it pretty hard but not
> abused. It ends up being stored in places where mice are just
> going to be present, no way to eradicate them (and yes there
> are cats around). Quite a while ago, could have been early '18
> or back even further in '17, I was checking the air filter
> (which I do roughly every 3-4 mows) and found it had a huge
> hole chewed in it. That means I probably ran the machine
> unfiltered a couple times. Suspicious and worried, I pulled
> the shrouds, and found the #1 cylinder fins just packed with
> slow-roasted mouse-nest. Most likely, I ran it a couple times
> with impaired cooling on that cylinder, and it overheated. I
> cleaned it all out and went back to mowing. It ran well,
> plenty of power, but I did notice an increase in oil
> consumption. I wondered if that was the overheating, or the
> ingestion of unfiltered dusty air. I didn't really feel like
> tearing it down so I just kept running it. And, with an eye
> on oil level, it did fine for 1-2 years, until just recently.
> It coughed and started running poorly. Drove it into the shop
> and found #1 was barely warm; it was only running on #2. Tore
> into #1 and found both rods bent plus the bolt holding the
> "Rocker arm bracket" was very loose. What the internet tells
> me is that overheat leads to sticky valves and when a valve
> sticks the pushrod gets out of place and bends. That sounds
> very plausible but I'm still not sure how I bent BOTH of them
> and how that loose rocker bracket happened. Oh and the head
> gasket is blown on that side, which probably explains the
> increased oil consumption. I am replacing the whole head,
> pushrods, valves, valve seals, gaskets. Cost about $300 in
> parts online. Waiting right now for parts to arrive and the
> grass is still growing.
>
> SO
>
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 8:46 AM Cecil Bearden
> <crbearden at copper.net <mailto:crbearden at copper.net>> wrote:
>
> The only time I bent a push rod was when I over revved the
> engine. It was on a 292 Ford V-8 in an old 57 4wd F100.
> I got stuck and had to give it the gas to get out. I
> straightened the rod out on an anvil and it i still running...
>
> Cecil
>
> On 9/17/2019 6:03 AM, Henry Miller wrote:
>
> My zero turn is in the shop with the same bent
> pushrods issue. Second time this summer. I'm thinking
> about a different engine... I have the replacement
> rods, but I found a small spring by the valves that
> doesn't come from anywhere obvious. I'll have to tear
> into it more now to see what else is wrong.
>
> --
>
> Henry Miller
>
> hank at millerfarm.com <mailto:hank at millerfarm.com>
>
> On Mon, Sep 16, 2019, at 3:51 PM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
>
> Mike M - that just happened to me yesterday! I've
> got a Gravely zero-turn with Kawasaki V-twin that
> bent a pushrod at 306 hours (known issue, easy-ish
> fix). It is sitting right now waiting for parts
> to arrive. Yesterday, I was walking past and
> happened to look down and saw 600 and something
> hours on the meter, which was odd but didn't quite
> register until it clicked over another tenth digit
> while I was watching. That happens once every 6
> minutes, so I got real lucky to see it. I guess
> the key got bumped somehow during disassembly
> Now, all the service reminders are saying "CHG
> NOW". I'm doing engine oil and air filter now
> anyway, but losing the service reminder on the
> hydro units bugs me. It added 337 hours sitting
> still (divide by 24 to see how long I've been
> waiting for parts, and therefore how long the
> grass is getting!). Since I'm not likely to ever
> sell this machine, I don't really care that much
> about the fake hours.
>
> Steve O.
>
> On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 4:09 PM Mike M
> <meulenms at gmx.com <mailto:meulenms at gmx.com>> wrote:
>
> I have a Scag zero turn that I bought new, I
> put about 350 hours on it over the course of
> several years. When I parked it this last
> fall, I accidentally left the key on, so when
> I went to start it this Spring I had 3500
> hours on it. Fortunately my daughter works at
> the dealer so I was able to buy a new one.
>
> Mike M
>
> On 9/16/2019 2:42 PM, Spencer Yost wrote:
>
> New tractors have hours embedded in the
> computer. Replacement computers are easily
> spotted by the metadata in the computer.
> So for approximately the last 10-15 years
> we have a reliable indicator of usage or
> computer replacement/tampering on most
> models.
>
> However, being able to obtain the
> equipment and software necessary to read
> the computer is still a sticking point and
> at the heart of the right to repair
> lawsuits going around. These lawsuits
> are extending to other equipment and
> devices. So farmers were actually at the
> forefront of this movement.
>
> Ok fine print for the following:
>
> This is not a political statement. I
> absolutely positively never endorse any
> presidential candidate publicly on this
> list nor should the following be construed
> as support for the candidates mentioned. I
> only add the following statements and link
> as a way to let y’all know that our
> frustrations with equipment are being
> heard by some. Ok enough with the fine print:
>
> Elizabeth Warren added support for the
> right to repair movement as one of her
> written policy planks - To my knowledge
> the only one but the movement should grow
> to the point candidates probably won’t be
> able to ignore it. Here’s Warren’s policy
> paper on agriculture in general but in
> that she specifically mentions right to
> repair:
>
> https://medium.com/@teamwarren/leveling-the-playing-field-for-americas-family-farmers-823d1994f067
>
> I am watching the right to repair movement
> closely.
>
> Spencer
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 16, 2019, at 10:29 AM, Al Jones
> <farmallsupera1 at gmail.com
> <mailto:farmallsupera1 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> No. If your tachometer goes bad, you
> get a new one with 0000.0 hours.
>
> Al
>
> On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 11:52 PM Cecil
> Bearden <crbearden at copper.net
> <mailto:crbearden at copper.net>> wrote:
>
> Probably not, and the mileage on
> the title of an auto or truck is
>
> nothing that can be relied on... I
> used to be able to tell by the wear
>
> on floorboards, rust, paint
> scratches etc if a trucks mileage was
>
> right. Tractors are a different
> animal. Usually just change the tires
>
> and if repainted, change the hoses
> and belts, new seat and cab interior
>
> and it is a new tractor.
>
> Cecil
>
> On 9/15/2019 8:36 PM, Jack wrote:
>
> > Tractors are not titled.
> Automobiles and trucks are. When
> you sell an auto, you record the
> mileage at time of sale and your
> signature. Is it even illegal to
> alter the hour meter on a tractor?
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: AT
> <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> <mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com>>
> On Behalf Of Cecil Bearden
>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 14,
> 2019 7:33 PM
>
> > To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com
> <mailto:at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>
> > Subject: Re: [AT] Statistics In
> Tractor Manufacturing Was Bicycle
> Program
>
> >
>
> > The New Holland Money Pit is what
> it is because somewhere in its
> history the hour meter was turned
> back. New tires were installed
> and it was made to look like a 5
> yr old tractor with about 200 hrs
> per year.
>
> > Cecil
>
> >
>
> > On 9/14/2019 10:26 AM, James Peck
> wrote:
>
> >> Some years ago I did participate
> in an academic Statistical Quality
> Control course. Much of the course
> involved the Weibull Distribution.
> If I remember correctly, the
> Weibull Curve predicted the
> lifespan of a manufactured
> assembly such as a tractor. It
> appears to be a gift from the
> mathematicians.
>
> >>
>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weibull_distribution
>
> >>
>
> >> The same distribution probably
> predicts that Cecil’s New Holland
> money pit will continue to be so
> and will suffer an early demise.
>
> >>
>
> >> [Stephen Offiler] I never took a
> whole semester of Statistics.
> Instead, we had a course called
> Engineering Experimentation, which
> was heavy on experiment design and
> statistical data analysis. That
> gave me a very good appreciation
> for the practical application of
> statistics. Out in the real world,
> on-the-job training programs in
> quality control principles in
> manufacturing (Deming, Juran, Lean
> Six Sigma) continued to solidify
> the practical applications.
>
> >>
>
> >> [Cecil Bearden] Steve: I nearly
> flunked statistics I only passed
> because I was a graduating senior.
> However, I did flunk Rocks & Clods
> 2124 and had to find another 4
> hours to graduate. Then 35 years
> later I retire as a Geotechnical
> engineer designing foundations. !!!
>
> >>
>
> >> [Stephen Offiler] I'm not sure if
> that is an interesting statistic,
> or simply predictable
> statistically. All you just said
> is that a bell-curve distribution
> for 2-year degrees overlaps a
> bell-curve distribution for 4-year
> degrees.
>
> >>
>
> >> [ James Peck] The interesting
> statistic is that some technical 2
> year programs have higher starting
> incomes than many 4 year degree
> programs. People who complete such
> a program can later take a 2+2
> program to get a four year degree
> if they choose.
>
> >>
>
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