[AT] Ram 3.0 liter Dieselgate

[Stephen Offiler]

Mike:

The continent of Europe has a population more than double the USA,
currently 743 million vs 319 million.   Diesels are much more popular there
for a mix of reasons.  Fuel in general is extremely expensive all over
Europe, so the better MPG of diesel makes a serious difference to the
average European household budget.  Traditionally the NOx standards in
Europe have been somewhat more lenient, but recently they have tightened up
to a range similar to ours in the USA.

Fuel economy in Europe is exceptionally good compared to USA but they run
tiny cars with tiny engines so of course MPG is better.  VW for example; we
get the 2.0 liter TDI (turbo direct injection) diesel.  In Europe that's
the luxury engine.  A more typical TDI in Europe is a 1.4 liter.  And yes,
their older NOx standards allowed engines to be tuned for higher thermal
efficiency (basically meaning better MPG vs an engine complying with USA
standards, all else equal).

How clean is clean enough is really a fundamentally good question.  I don't
know.  I do know that Los Angeles used to suffer terrible problems with
smog, and NOx is a critical precursor to smog formation.  That gave birth
to CARB, California Air Resources Board.  They began to clamp down and
control NOx, with the result that they literally fixed smog.  Rural areas
with low traffic density could easily support a higher NOx output but the
cities tend to dictate the requirements.

By the way, I'm not arguing anything here Mike.

SO


On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 6:53 PM, Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:

> Which is why diesel cars in Europe (hardly a big polluter) get markedly
> better fuel economy from their diesel cars than we do here. Ours may be
> cleaner, by a smidge but at the cost of fuel economy. Burn more diesel,
> the production and transfer of which is not pollution free, and transfer
> the cost to the consumer.  How clean is clean enough? I'll stand down
> now, and just listen, because I cannot argue technical facts with you.
>
> Mike M
>
>
> On 1/12/2017 6:14 PM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
> > Ridiculous?  Or not?  Since VW Dieselgate hit, I've been saying (not to
> > ATIS, but out loud, to family and friends) "they all cheat".  I'm a
> > soon-to-be-former owner of a VW diesel, and an engineer.  Can't help but
> be
> > fascinated by the whole affair.  Gas engines are much easier to pass
> > emissions tests but they still tweak the programs to perform to
> government
> > spec when they're being tested.  Stands to reason that diesel
> manufacturers
> > other than VW realized pretty much the same facts of life as VW, and took
> > roughly similar routes to gain emissions certification.
> >
> >
> > SO
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
> >
> >> This is getting ridiculous.
> >>
> >> Mike M
> >>
> >>
> >> On 1/12/2017 2:08 PM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
> >>> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/12/business/epa-emissions-
> >> cheating-diesel-fiat-chrysler-jeep-dodge.html?emc=edit_na_
> >> 20170112&nlid=31285255&ref=cta
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