[AT] Ram 3.0 liter Dieselgate

Thu Jan 12 17:40:18 PST 2017

I suspect my perspective on air pollution from vehicles is similar to 
many. But my experience is perhaps pertinent in this discussion. I lived 
in the city of Los Angeles when I was a child in the 1960s. We left Los 
Angeles because my mother's health could not stand staying there thanks 
to the air pollution that was over 90% from transportation i.e. cars and 
trucks with a tiny amount of ships and trains thrown in. In 1968 when we 
left, nearly every day I could not see the hills that were less than a 
mile away most of the day unless there were rain or a Santa Ana wind 
(onshore to offshore).
      Today a bad day in that part of the city unless there is coastal 
fog, the visibility ranges upward from 8 miles. On many winter days that 
in the 1960s were like the worst summer days, now the visibility and air 
indexes are really very good. The smog also no longer sits off the coast 
like it often did then.
      There is absolutely no question that the improvement in air 
quality has benefitted nearly everyone in our country and others that 
adhere to our standards.
      On the other hand, I get frustrated that I cannot repair most 
items on vehicles now. I also was and still am unhappy that they 
required removal of perfectly good diesel vehicles from service and 
export of them to other countries rather than making new commercial 
vehicle requirements like every previous improvement, allow vehicles in 
use to stay in use until retired....
      Would I prefer us to return to 1968's pollution regulations? 
Absolutely NO. Will I occasionally grump about the modern world? Yes. 
Will I support California and national efforts to make our country 
better even if occasionally they make my life harder? As long as they 
are logical for society, yes. After all I do not wish to pass along to 
my children's children a world that I have not helped to make better. 
Now that I actually have those children's children (otherwise known as 
grandchildren, lol) I suppose it makes what has always been my 
philosophy even more concrete.
      As a note, I think that we may have passed the tipping point for 
stronger NOx regulations on cars and trucks given how clean they are now 
and I would prefer to focus on practical electric trucks (like for my 
farm!) and practical renewable energy generation to both avoid sending 
our money and jobs to other countries and also to cle the environment by 
simply not needing an emission regulation in the first place on many 
vehicles. I would love the development of a PRACTICAL tractor that did 
not require me to buy diesel or gasoline to operate it. I have no 
knowledge of such a tractor being available any time soon. Practical 
electric trucks seem very close though....

                 Grant Brians - Hollister,California farmer still damp
1/12/2017 4:34 PM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
> Mike:
>
> The continent of Europe has a population more than double the USA,
> currently 743 million vs 319 million.   Diesels are much more popular there
> for a mix of reasons.  Fuel in general is extremely expensive all over
> Europe, so the better MPG of diesel makes a serious difference to the
> average European household budget.  Traditionally the NOx standards in
> Europe have been somewhat more lenient, but recently they have tightened up
> to a range similar to ours in the USA.
>
> Fuel economy in Europe is exceptionally good compared to USA but they run
> tiny cars with tiny engines so of course MPG is better.  VW for example; we
> get the 2.0 liter TDI (turbo direct injection) diesel.  In Europe that's
> the luxury engine.  A more typical TDI in Europe is a 1.4 liter.  And yes,
> their older NOx standards allowed engines to be tuned for higher thermal
> efficiency (basically meaning better MPG vs an engine complying with USA
> standards, all else equal).
>
> How clean is clean enough is really a fundamentally good question.  I don't
> know.  I do know that Los Angeles used to suffer terrible problems with
> smog, and NOx is a critical precursor to smog formation.  That gave birth
> to CARB, California Air Resources Board.  They began to clamp down and
> control NOx, with the result that they literally fixed smog.  Rural areas
> with low traffic density could easily support a higher NOx output but the
> cities tend to dictate the requirements.
>
> By the way, I'm not arguing anything here Mike.
>
> SO
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 6:53 PM, Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
>
>> Which is why diesel cars in Europe (hardly a big polluter) get markedly
>> better fuel economy from their diesel cars than we do here. Ours may be
>> cleaner, by a smidge but at the cost of fuel economy. Burn more diesel,
>> the production and transfer of which is not pollution free, and transfer
>> the cost to the consumer.  How clean is clean enough? I'll stand down
>> now, and just listen, because I cannot argue technical facts with you.
>>
>> Mike M
>>
>>
>> On 1/12/2017 6:14 PM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
>>> Ridiculous?  Or not?  Since VW Dieselgate hit, I've been saying (not to
>>> ATIS, but out loud, to family and friends) "they all cheat".  I'm a
>>> soon-to-be-former owner of a VW diesel, and an engineer.  Can't help but
>> be
>>> fascinated by the whole affair.  Gas engines are much easier to pass
>>> emissions tests but they still tweak the programs to perform to
>> government
>>> spec when they're being tested.  Stands to reason that diesel
>> manufacturers
>>> other than VW realized pretty much the same facts of life as VW, and took
>>> roughly similar routes to gain emissions certification.
>>>
>>>
>>> SO
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is getting ridiculous.
>>>>
>>>> Mike M
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1/12/2017 2:08 PM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/12/business/epa-emissions-
>>>> cheating-diesel-fiat-chrysler-jeep-dodge.html?emc=edit_na_
>>>> 20170112&nlid=31285255&ref=cta
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