[AT] synthetic oil - gas versus diesel trucks

Jason dejoodster at gmail.com
Sat Nov 19 11:56:11 PST 2016 

I really miss getting smoked out of the garage, eyes burning, etc.

On Sat, Nov 19, 2016, 6:38 AM Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ah, emissions...
>
> These days, five different types of emissions are regulated.  CO, CO2,
> unburned hydrocarbons (HC), particulate matter (PM), and oxides of nitrogen
> (NOx).  Diesel engines make a lot of PM and NOx, and the higher you tune
> them (higher combustion pressures, better conversion of heat to mechanical
> power, also better conditions to force N to hook up with O) the more NOx
> you get.  Black smoke from a highly tuned diesel is, of course, PM, and you
> can also expect a lot of unburned HC if you're running that rich.
>
> In short, diesels are really, really good at making emissions.  The PM and
> the NOx, diesel's "big two" emissions, are well established to contribute
> to smog and acid rain.  The famous days of smog hanging over LA and Denver
> in the 1970's gave birth to the EPA, and that air is clear today.
>
> Some people (not referring to anything said in this thread) tend to focus
> on only one component of emissions when in fact there are the five.  Think
> VW "Dieselgate" with all the focus on NOx.  Diesels make a lot less CO2,
> which, if you think that's a pollutant, must be a good thing if you make
> less.  But, they do make substantially more of the other four depending on
> the state of tune, and thus, to be as clean as modern gasoline engines,
> they require both some detuning and a "science fair experiment" behind the
> engine to clean up the rest.
>
> One thing Mike mentioned, Europe... they've been more lenient on NOx than
> the USA, but not a whole lot less, allowing something like double the
> amount we allow.  Two points here.  One, they don't test like we do and it
> is REALLY easy to cheat over there, which is exactly what has been
> happening, for many years.  Second point, they are now tightening up to
> approximately the same levels as the USA.
>
> Final thought.... I just heard Dodge and Cummins are on their way to court,
> accused of cheating on emissions.
>
> SO
>
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 12:49 AM, Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
>
> > There was a time when diesel paid off,  however  given the EPA'S heavy
> > hand in regulating auto diesel's that time has passed. They are forced
> > to be so clean, you could use them in a ventilator and not know the
> > difference.  Meanwhile I see  big rigs belching out black soot like
> > crazy. New diesel trucks and cars get a fraction of the MPG that they
> > did 20 years ago. Thanks big government and thanks EPA, we now burn more
> > fossil fuel,with all it's associated costs, than we did when  we were
> > following Europe's protocols.
> >
> > Mike M
> >
> > have a 2001 F250 super duty with the 6.8L V10.
> >
> > > It has 260,000 to 280,000 miles on it.  I have had one blown spark
> > > plug.  Screwed it back in drove it home and repaired the head with a
> > > timeserver insert.  Cost $300 for tooling. AC clutch $40 Replace the
> > > fuel pump about $100.  Changed oil, plugs three times, brakes once.
> > > Need brakes  again.  I pulled my tractor and 30ft bumper pull trailer
> to
> > > Colorado over red mountain pass, Wolf creek pass and many others three
> > > or four times.
> > >
> > > The V10 gets 10 mpg average on trips pulling the trailer. 13 mpg back
> > > and forth to work and 10 mpg in town.
> > >    The only time I wished I had a Diesel is when I am over 10,000 ft
> > > altitude.   I have pulled my RV over passes 12,000 ft high.  Slow but
> no
> > > problems.
> > >
> > > I did all repairs and maintenance my self.   I could not of done that
> > > with a Diesel.   The acquisition cost was $18,000 used in 2004.  The
> > > cost of a Diesel was over $30,000 to $40,000 for the same age vehicle.
> > >
> > > Even with better fuel economy I do not think I could have done better
> > > with a Diesel considering  repairs and maintenance of a Diesel.
> > >
> > > If I spent a lot of time in the mountains or hauled heaver loads then A
> > > diesel would make sense.  Most of the time I am in the flat lands
> > > running empty so the Gas works for me.
> > >
> > > New truck? I would have to research it.  Modern  Gas and the Diesel
> > > engines are much more complicated and difficult to work on. Very
> > > expensive to repair.
> > >
> > > I am not worried about resale value.  I am running this truck until it
> > > quits.  It that time it will owe me nothing.
> > >
> > > Besides the V10 is much more fun to drive than a Diesel.
> > >
> > > On 11/18/2016 9:03 AM, Spencer Yost wrote:
> > >> I have owned nothing but diesels for the last 10 years(cars too).   My
> > MH Pacer and my John Deere B are the only two large engines on the
> property
> > that are gasoline.
> > >>
> > >> Dennis, my experience has been similar to yours. Approximately 30 to
> > 40% better mileage using fuel that only cost 10% more at most. Always
> seems
> > to be a no-brainer for me.  The difference in acquisition cost is always
> > made up by better reliability, better resale, and better longevity.
> > >>
> > >> And that 70,000 mile rule for owning a diesel? That's how you cash
> flow
> > a diesel(added interest and principal on a larger loan).   If you use
> cost
> > of ownership combined with cost of operation per mile over the life of
> the
> > vehicle, diesels have always worked out slightly better for me.  Just
> > remember cash flow is how you keep your head above water, but balance
> sheet
> > is how you get richer.
> > >>
> > >> If you trade frequently I could see where a diesel doesn't work.
> > >>
> > >> Spencer Yost
> > >>
> > >>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 9:34 PM, Dennis Johnson <moscowengnr at outlook.com
> >
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> This is first real road trip without a trailer in my EcoDiesel 1500
> > 4x4 after repairs and exhaust cleaning. Mileage is averaging 26.5 around
> > the Tulsa area. Was 25.6 on interstate running 75 MPH between Houston and
> > Oklahoma border,  and hit 27 on a stretch of road that was 65 MPH. Was
> > getting about 25 to 25.6 just driving around Houston.
> > >>> With a 9000 tow rating on this I am happy again. With 50K miles per
> > year it is still making sense or me to have the Diesel.   My son has new
> > Ram Rebel 1500 with Hemi and is averaging around 14, maybe 15 on loner
> > trips.
> > >>>
> > >>> Dennis
> > >>>
> > >>> Sent from my iPad
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 7:41 PM, Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Shopping for my first new truck in 20 years, I was a bit surprised
> by
> > how
> > >>>> far they'd come.  My old truck, 1997 F250HD 4x4 with 5.8 liter gas
> > engine,
> > >>>> had 8600 GVWR and 13,500 GCWR.  New truck, 2016 F250 4x4 with 6.2
> > liter gas
> > >>>> engine has 10,000 GVWR and 19,500 GCWR.  And the new truck even gets
> > better
> > >>>> fuel economy (Ok not a huge difference, but better, in the 10%
> > ballpark) in
> > >>>> the exact same driving patterns.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> SO
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 7:31 PM, Dean VP <deanvp at att.net> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Mike,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Didn't mean to imply the F350 SRW would have a higher payload or
> have
> > >>>>> better
> > >>>>> towing capacity than a Dually.  I just don't like the extra width
> of
> > a
> > >>>>> dually and it's less traction when empty.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Dean VP
> > >>>>> Snohomish, WA 98290
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> > >>>>> [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of Mike M
> > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 3:38 PM
> > >>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group <
> > at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] synthetic oil - gas versus diesel trucks
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Not sure about that Dean, the new Dodge dually  with the 6.4 Hemi
> > will pull
> > >>>>> in the mid 16K range.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Mike M
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> On 11/17/2016 4:52 PM, Dean VP wrote:
> > >>>>>> I purchased a New 2003 Ford F250 7.3 Liter Diesel and now have
> > 180,000
> > >>>>>> plus miles on it. 10 of the 13 years I pulled a 38' Montana 3400RL
> > 5th
> > >>>>>> wheel with it over 4,000 miles a year in mountains. Only trouble
> > I've
> > >>>>>> had with it other than normal wear items is the Alternator which
> > died
> > >>>>>> in the 1st year.  A gas engine would not have been able to handle
> > the
> > >>>>>> 13,000 lb 5th wheel.  Averaged over 12 MPG pulling the 5th wheel.
> > >>>>>> Could get 20 mpg on open highway if I stayed under 60 MPH.  MY
> only
> > >>>>> regret
> > >>>>> was that I bought a F250 rather than a
> > >>>>>> F350.   I purchased the F250 because it had more towing
> > >>>>> capacity(equipment
> > >>>>>> trailer) than the F350. Didn't consider we would be buying a 5th
> > wheel
> > >>>>>> 3 years later.  The F350 has more payload capacity which id=s the
> > key
> > >>>>>> spec for 5th wheels.  Added air bags to improve the effective
> > payload on
> > >>>>> the F250.
> > >>>>>> The only difference between a 2003 F250 Camper Special and F350
> SRW
> > >>>>>> was an extra leaf in the rear springs. Same engine, transmission,
> > rear
> > >>>>>> axle, brakes, etc.  Would buy a F350 SWR over a F350 Dually.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Dean VP
> > >>>>>> Snohomish, WA 98290
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>>> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> > >>>>>> [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of David
> > Bruce
> > >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 2:08 PM
> > >>>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> > >>>>>> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] synthetic oil - gas versus diesel trucks
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I determined years ago that my needs were better suited for a gas
> > engine.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Using a new email address in hopes I can reach the list.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> David
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> NW NC
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On 11/17/2016 3:13 PM, Herb Metz wrote:
> > >>>>>>> Good point Grant; don't remember that issue being mentioned in
> > >>>>>>> previous comparisons. Will admit that I don't always seriously
> > >>>>>>> analyze such comparisons.  I will note that I was initially upset
> > >>>>>>> when I found out a couple years ago that my favorite (Dodge
> Dakota)
> > >>>>>>> pickup did have diesel optional; in Africa. Herb(GA)
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>>>> From: Grant Brians
> > >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 2:30 PM
> > >>>>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] synthetic oil - gas versus diesel trucks
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I made the choice last year to buy two Gasoline vehicles (E350
> box
> > >>>>>>> truck and Ford Transit) rather than the Diesel versions of each.
> > >>>>>>> Based on the fuel consumption and lower price per gallon of
> > Gasoline
> > >>>>>>> versus Diesel, I made the right choice for us. I must also say
> that
> > >>>>>>> the E350 will have exceeded 70,000 miles in the year and the
> > Transit
> > >>>>>>> is about
> > >>>>>> 37,000 miles!
> > >>>>>>> What I do not know is how many miles each will go ultimately, but
> > it
> > >>>>>>> appears that all of the calculations will work out better. A
> factor
> > >>>>>>> that is killing me that would still be a problem with Diesel is
> > that
> > >>>>>>> the tires last a fraction as long as they used to on all of our
> > >>>>> vehicles.
> > >>>>>>> Tire life has decreased immensely since the 80s....
> > >>>>>>>                Grant Brians - Hollister,California vegetable,
> herb,
> > >>>>>>> edible flower, fruit and nut and seed farmer
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On 11/16/2016 1:16 PM, charlie hill wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> Gil,  I'm late coming to this conversation but I'll tell you
> what
> > I
> > >>>>>>>> read in a farm magazine many years ago.  The article said if you
> > >>>>>>>> don't drive a truck (pickup or medium duty) at least 50,000
> miles
> > a
> > >>>>>>>> year you can't justify the expense of purchase and maintenance
> on
> > >>>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>> diesel.
> > >>>>>>>> That was probably 25 years ago and I'm sure the economics have
> > >>>>>>>> changed over time but it's still a point worth considering.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Charlie
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>>>>> From: vschwartz1 at comcast.net
> > >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 9:43 PM
> > >>>>>>>> To: Antique
> > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] synthetic oil
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I want to thank everyone who has commented on this thread. It
> has
> > >>>>>>>> been a most interesting subject and all comments have been very
> > >>>>>>>> enlightening. At my age I have only thought about buying a
> diesel
> > >>>>>>>> engine pickup and this subject of conversation has helped make
> up
> > my
> > >>>>>>>> mind. It seems as though buying a diesel engine is like buying
> > >>>>>>>> trouble unless you really need it for work, I don't. Initial
> cost
> > of
> > >>>>>>>> a diesel never came into the conversation but I know something
> > about
> > >>>>>>>> the initial cost and normal maintenance costs after the warranty
> > >>>>>>>> expires. I think I'll just drive my 04 Hemi a while longer. It
> has
> > >>>>>>>> done very well and the overhead on it is miniscule.
> > >>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone for their comments and information.
> > >>>>>>>> Gil
> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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