[AT] synthetic oil - gas versus diesel trucks

Stephen Offiler soffiler at gmail.com
Sat Nov 19 04:33:18 PST 2016 

Ah, emissions...

These days, five different types of emissions are regulated.  CO, CO2,
unburned hydrocarbons (HC), particulate matter (PM), and oxides of nitrogen
(NOx).  Diesel engines make a lot of PM and NOx, and the higher you tune
them (higher combustion pressures, better conversion of heat to mechanical
power, also better conditions to force N to hook up with O) the more NOx
you get.  Black smoke from a highly tuned diesel is, of course, PM, and you
can also expect a lot of unburned HC if you're running that rich.

In short, diesels are really, really good at making emissions.  The PM and
the NOx, diesel's "big two" emissions, are well established to contribute
to smog and acid rain.  The famous days of smog hanging over LA and Denver
in the 1970's gave birth to the EPA, and that air is clear today.

Some people (not referring to anything said in this thread) tend to focus
on only one component of emissions when in fact there are the five.  Think
VW "Dieselgate" with all the focus on NOx.  Diesels make a lot less CO2,
which, if you think that's a pollutant, must be a good thing if you make
less.  But, they do make substantially more of the other four depending on
the state of tune, and thus, to be as clean as modern gasoline engines,
they require both some detuning and a "science fair experiment" behind the
engine to clean up the rest.

One thing Mike mentioned, Europe... they've been more lenient on NOx than
the USA, but not a whole lot less, allowing something like double the
amount we allow.  Two points here.  One, they don't test like we do and it
is REALLY easy to cheat over there, which is exactly what has been
happening, for many years.  Second point, they are now tightening up to
approximately the same levels as the USA.

Final thought.... I just heard Dodge and Cummins are on their way to court,
accused of cheating on emissions.

SO



On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 12:49 AM, Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:

> There was a time when diesel paid off,  however  given the EPA'S heavy
> hand in regulating auto diesel's that time has passed. They are forced
> to be so clean, you could use them in a ventilator and not know the
> difference.  Meanwhile I see  big rigs belching out black soot like
> crazy. New diesel trucks and cars get a fraction of the MPG that they
> did 20 years ago. Thanks big government and thanks EPA, we now burn more
> fossil fuel,with all it's associated costs, than we did when  we were
> following Europe's protocols.
>
> Mike M
>
> have a 2001 F250 super duty with the 6.8L V10.
>
> > It has 260,000 to 280,000 miles on it.  I have had one blown spark
> > plug.  Screwed it back in drove it home and repaired the head with a
> > timeserver insert.  Cost $300 for tooling. AC clutch $40 Replace the
> > fuel pump about $100.  Changed oil, plugs three times, brakes once.
> > Need brakes  again.  I pulled my tractor and 30ft bumper pull trailer to
> > Colorado over red mountain pass, Wolf creek pass and many others three
> > or four times.
> >
> > The V10 gets 10 mpg average on trips pulling the trailer. 13 mpg back
> > and forth to work and 10 mpg in town.
> >    The only time I wished I had a Diesel is when I am over 10,000 ft
> > altitude.   I have pulled my RV over passes 12,000 ft high.  Slow but no
> > problems.
> >
> > I did all repairs and maintenance my self.   I could not of done that
> > with a Diesel.   The acquisition cost was $18,000 used in 2004.  The
> > cost of a Diesel was over $30,000 to $40,000 for the same age vehicle.
> >
> > Even with better fuel economy I do not think I could have done better
> > with a Diesel considering  repairs and maintenance of a Diesel.
> >
> > If I spent a lot of time in the mountains or hauled heaver loads then A
> > diesel would make sense.  Most of the time I am in the flat lands
> > running empty so the Gas works for me.
> >
> > New truck? I would have to research it.  Modern  Gas and the Diesel
> > engines are much more complicated and difficult to work on. Very
> > expensive to repair.
> >
> > I am not worried about resale value.  I am running this truck until it
> > quits.  It that time it will owe me nothing.
> >
> > Besides the V10 is much more fun to drive than a Diesel.
> >
> > On 11/18/2016 9:03 AM, Spencer Yost wrote:
> >> I have owned nothing but diesels for the last 10 years(cars too).   My
> MH Pacer and my John Deere B are the only two large engines on the property
> that are gasoline.
> >>
> >> Dennis, my experience has been similar to yours. Approximately 30 to
> 40% better mileage using fuel that only cost 10% more at most. Always seems
> to be a no-brainer for me.  The difference in acquisition cost is always
> made up by better reliability, better resale, and better longevity.
> >>
> >> And that 70,000 mile rule for owning a diesel? That's how you cash flow
> a diesel(added interest and principal on a larger loan).   If you use cost
> of ownership combined with cost of operation per mile over the life of the
> vehicle, diesels have always worked out slightly better for me.  Just
> remember cash flow is how you keep your head above water, but balance sheet
> is how you get richer.
> >>
> >> If you trade frequently I could see where a diesel doesn't work.
> >>
> >> Spencer Yost
> >>
> >>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 9:34 PM, Dennis Johnson <moscowengnr at outlook.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> This is first real road trip without a trailer in my EcoDiesel 1500
> 4x4 after repairs and exhaust cleaning. Mileage is averaging 26.5 around
> the Tulsa area. Was 25.6 on interstate running 75 MPH between Houston and
> Oklahoma border,  and hit 27 on a stretch of road that was 65 MPH. Was
> getting about 25 to 25.6 just driving around Houston.
> >>> With a 9000 tow rating on this I am happy again. With 50K miles per
> year it is still making sense or me to have the Diesel.   My son has new
> Ram Rebel 1500 with Hemi and is averaging around 14, maybe 15 on loner
> trips.
> >>>
> >>> Dennis
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPad
> >>>
> >>>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 7:41 PM, Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Shopping for my first new truck in 20 years, I was a bit surprised by
> how
> >>>> far they'd come.  My old truck, 1997 F250HD 4x4 with 5.8 liter gas
> engine,
> >>>> had 8600 GVWR and 13,500 GCWR.  New truck, 2016 F250 4x4 with 6.2
> liter gas
> >>>> engine has 10,000 GVWR and 19,500 GCWR.  And the new truck even gets
> better
> >>>> fuel economy (Ok not a huge difference, but better, in the 10%
> ballpark) in
> >>>> the exact same driving patterns.
> >>>>
> >>>> SO
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 7:31 PM, Dean VP <deanvp at att.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Mike,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Didn't mean to imply the F350 SRW would have a higher payload or have
> >>>>> better
> >>>>> towing capacity than a Dually.  I just don't like the extra width of
> a
> >>>>> dually and it's less traction when empty.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dean VP
> >>>>> Snohomish, WA 98290
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> >>>>> [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of Mike M
> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 3:38 PM
> >>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group <
> at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] synthetic oil - gas versus diesel trucks
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Not sure about that Dean, the new Dodge dually  with the 6.4 Hemi
> will pull
> >>>>> in the mid 16K range.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Mike M
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 11/17/2016 4:52 PM, Dean VP wrote:
> >>>>>> I purchased a New 2003 Ford F250 7.3 Liter Diesel and now have
> 180,000
> >>>>>> plus miles on it. 10 of the 13 years I pulled a 38' Montana 3400RL
> 5th
> >>>>>> wheel with it over 4,000 miles a year in mountains. Only trouble
> I've
> >>>>>> had with it other than normal wear items is the Alternator which
> died
> >>>>>> in the 1st year.  A gas engine would not have been able to handle
> the
> >>>>>> 13,000 lb 5th wheel.  Averaged over 12 MPG pulling the 5th wheel.
> >>>>>> Could get 20 mpg on open highway if I stayed under 60 MPH.  MY only
> >>>>> regret
> >>>>> was that I bought a F250 rather than a
> >>>>>> F350.   I purchased the F250 because it had more towing
> >>>>> capacity(equipment
> >>>>>> trailer) than the F350. Didn't consider we would be buying a 5th
> wheel
> >>>>>> 3 years later.  The F350 has more payload capacity which id=s the
> key
> >>>>>> spec for 5th wheels.  Added air bags to improve the effective
> payload on
> >>>>> the F250.
> >>>>>> The only difference between a 2003 F250 Camper Special and F350 SRW
> >>>>>> was an extra leaf in the rear springs. Same engine, transmission,
> rear
> >>>>>> axle, brakes, etc.  Would buy a F350 SWR over a F350 Dually.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Dean VP
> >>>>>> Snohomish, WA 98290
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> >>>>>> [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of David
> Bruce
> >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 2:08 PM
> >>>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> >>>>>> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] synthetic oil - gas versus diesel trucks
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I determined years ago that my needs were better suited for a gas
> engine.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Using a new email address in hopes I can reach the list.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> David
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> NW NC
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 11/17/2016 3:13 PM, Herb Metz wrote:
> >>>>>>> Good point Grant; don't remember that issue being mentioned in
> >>>>>>> previous comparisons. Will admit that I don't always seriously
> >>>>>>> analyze such comparisons.  I will note that I was initially upset
> >>>>>>> when I found out a couple years ago that my favorite (Dodge Dakota)
> >>>>>>> pickup did have diesel optional; in Africa. Herb(GA)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>> From: Grant Brians
> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 2:30 PM
> >>>>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] synthetic oil - gas versus diesel trucks
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I made the choice last year to buy two Gasoline vehicles (E350 box
> >>>>>>> truck and Ford Transit) rather than the Diesel versions of each.
> >>>>>>> Based on the fuel consumption and lower price per gallon of
> Gasoline
> >>>>>>> versus Diesel, I made the right choice for us. I must also say that
> >>>>>>> the E350 will have exceeded 70,000 miles in the year and the
> Transit
> >>>>>>> is about
> >>>>>> 37,000 miles!
> >>>>>>> What I do not know is how many miles each will go ultimately, but
> it
> >>>>>>> appears that all of the calculations will work out better. A factor
> >>>>>>> that is killing me that would still be a problem with Diesel is
> that
> >>>>>>> the tires last a fraction as long as they used to on all of our
> >>>>> vehicles.
> >>>>>>> Tire life has decreased immensely since the 80s....
> >>>>>>>                Grant Brians - Hollister,California vegetable, herb,
> >>>>>>> edible flower, fruit and nut and seed farmer
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 11/16/2016 1:16 PM, charlie hill wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Gil,  I'm late coming to this conversation but I'll tell you what
> I
> >>>>>>>> read in a farm magazine many years ago.  The article said if you
> >>>>>>>> don't drive a truck (pickup or medium duty) at least 50,000 miles
> a
> >>>>>>>> year you can't justify the expense of purchase and maintenance on
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>> diesel.
> >>>>>>>> That was probably 25 years ago and I'm sure the economics have
> >>>>>>>> changed over time but it's still a point worth considering.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Charlie
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: vschwartz1 at comcast.net
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 9:43 PM
> >>>>>>>> To: Antique
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] synthetic oil
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I want to thank everyone who has commented on this thread. It has
> >>>>>>>> been a most interesting subject and all comments have been very
> >>>>>>>> enlightening. At my age I have only thought about buying a diesel
> >>>>>>>> engine pickup and this subject of conversation has helped make up
> my
> >>>>>>>> mind. It seems as though buying a diesel engine is like buying
> >>>>>>>> trouble unless you really need it for work, I don't. Initial cost
> of
> >>>>>>>> a diesel never came into the conversation but I know something
> about
> >>>>>>>> the initial cost and normal maintenance costs after the warranty
> >>>>>>>> expires. I think I'll just drive my 04 Hemi a while longer. It has
> >>>>>>>> done very well and the overhead on it is miniscule.
> >>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone for their comments and information.
> >>>>>>>> Gil
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> AT mailing list
> >>>>>>> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> AT mailing list
> >>>>>> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> AT mailing list
> >>>>>> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> ---
> >>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> >>>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> AT mailing list
> >>>>> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> AT mailing list
> >>>>> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at
> >>>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> AT mailing list
> >>>> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> AT mailing list
> >>> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> AT mailing list
> >> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > AT mailing list
> > http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at
> >
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
> _______________________________________________
> AT mailing list
> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at
>

More information about the AT mailing list