[AT] OT LED question

Cecil Bearden crbearden at copper.net
Sun Nov 6 18:18:45 PST 2016 

Re: My old 1937 Plymouth with the 6 volt lights.   I really need to find 
a listing on the bulb that is supposed to be used in the reflectors.  If 
the filament is not in the right place, it would certainly make a 
difference.  I have kept it all original, including the interior.   If I 
can find 6 volt led headlight assemblies, I could mount them on the 
bumper like fog lights and It would solve the problem.


On 11/6/2016 6:36 PM, rlgoss at twc.com wrote:
> This is the first time I have seen a discussion of this topic in more than 40 years.  My father was a design engineer for GE for most of his career, and he used to describe this process to me.  (Feeling nostalgic here.)
>
> Larry
> ---- Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com> wrote:
>> That's very interesting, Herb!  I know zero about tungsten metallurgy, but
>> it certainly sounds like they were worried about something at the ingot
>> level, something like impurity levels perhaps.
>>
>> Accelerated life testing of incandescents is pretty easy.  Just boost the
>> voltage.  There is a very strong, but also very predictable, life reduction
>> at elevated voltages.  I found this graph that puts it all together pretty
>> nicely.  You can see several things here; for example, see how the efficacy
>> increases at elevated voltage (chart says efficacy is up 20% for a 10%
>> voltage increase)  and life is cut by about 2/3 at that same point.  With
>> voltage up 20%, life is shortened by over 90%.  You can life-test a 2000-hr
>> bulb and get answers in less than a week.
>>
>> http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Documents/IN%20Voltage.htm
>>
>> SO
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Herb Metz <metz-h.b at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Stephen's post is interesting, and as always, informative.  Decades ago
>>> (1960's), when I was an engineer at GE (Appliance Control Dept), we had a
>>> tour of a GE lighting manufacturing facility.  Even though their ingots for
>>> bulb filament were special, as one would expect, they would make a short
>>> production run of bulbs from each ingot (this was my understanding at that
>>> time), then accelerate life test these bulbs before using that ingot.
>>> Looking back, wish someone would have questioned: accelerated test method,
>>> number of filaments/ingot (1,000's, maybe millions), criteria for
>>> determining if ingot was useable, etc.  I have no idea as to when GE
>>> started
>>> large scale manufacturing of incandescant bulbs; nor how long they
>>> continued
>>> this above practice. Herb(GA)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----Original Message-----
>>> From: Stephen Offiler
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2016 6:53 AM
>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT LED question
>>>
>>> Charlie, I do not believe I expressed or implied ANY doubt about your
>>> convenience-store 100W bulbs.  What I posted was the details of the Act of
>>> Congress that created this situation, not exclusively directed at you, but
>>> also for the others on the list who might be interested in what happened to
>>> the incandescent bulb.  I also mentioned one way (did not say it was the
>>> ONLY way) an EISA compliant 100W incandescent can be built (halogen).
>>>
>>> Draw your own conclusions, everyone.  Are old-school incandescent bulbs
>>> actually still legal?  Well, if labeled "Rough Service" the answer is yes.
>>>    Is Charlie's convenience store selling legal bulbs?  Are there other ways
>>> to make a legal 100W bulb?  That question is interesting and I've commented
>>> a bit on that too.  The Act requires increased efficiency, which in
>>> lighting engineering is called efficacy.  It is lumens (light quantity)
>>> divided by the electricity in watts needed to create that light.
>>>
>>> An incandescent bulb can be designed with a heavy filament that runs cooler
>>> and resists burning out, but the efficacy suffers.  These are the outlawed
>>> bulbs.  Or they can be designed with a light filament that runs hot and
>>> puts out more light per watt.  In theory, such a bulb can be made to comply
>>> with EISA.  The problem is that light, hot-running filament will burn out
>>> very rapidly.  It is at least possible that the convenience-store bulbs are
>>> of this nature.
>>>
>>> Halogens are interesting because they a light, hot filament that resists
>>> burnout because the halogen gases (such as Argon, Krypton, etc) actually
>>> hold the tungsten molecules and allow them to re-plate back onto the
>>> filament, basically recycling them, instead of letting the filament erode.
>>> That is the basic magic of halogen bulbs.
>>>
>>> SO
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 11:32 AM, charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Steve I don't doubt what you are saying but you seem to doubt everything
>>>> I say.  I'm telling you the man is selling old style incandescent bulbs.
>>>> I
>>>> don't
>>>> know how he gets them or if they are legal but they are NOT halogen,
>>>> disguised or not.
>>>>
>>>> Charlie
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Stephen Offiler
>>>> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 9:29 PM
>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT LED question
>>>>
>>>> Thank you, Ken.
>>>>
>>>> Charlie, I merely stated a few facts regarding 100W incandescents.
>>>> Nothing
>>>> I said was intended to argue against anything you said.  You are reading
>>>> way too much into this.
>>>>
>>>> I would go on to explain the concept of efficacy in lighting, and how
>>> much
>>>> it varies with incandescents of the conventional as well as the halogen
>>>> variety, and how you can still design a conventional (non-halogen) 100W
>>>> incan but there's no free lunch; if it meets government regulations its
>>>> life will be a small fraction of what you'd call reasonable.  But I'll
>>>> stop
>>>> here to keep the peace.
>>>>
>>>> SO
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:27 PM, Ken Knierim <ken.knierim at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>> Charlie, please ease up. Steve is a talented, detail-oriented engineer
>>>> and
>>>>> he's correct. halogen lamps are a type of incandescent light.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halogen_lamp
>>>>>
>>>>> Rough service bulbs can still be made here in the US last I knew. It's
>>> a
>>>>> corner case they allowed for awhile.
>>>>>
>>>>> In Arizona the ballasts in the CFL's do NOT like the heat and die
>>>>> frequently. And don't break one or you have mercury to deal with.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since I (may) sell and service semiconductor equipment for Cree I am
>>>>> partial to their hardware (can't say for certain due to lawyers of
>>>>> course),
>>>>> but any new technology will have its warts. The Phillips/Lumileds parts
>>>>> seem to be rated for higher temp operation and that's important for
>>>>> outdoor
>>>>> lighting here. The Feit Electric (chinese) parts have a higher failure
>>>>> rate
>>>>> in my limited tested.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken in AZ
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:50 PM, Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Charlie, are they by any chance what they refer to as a heavy duty or
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> rough service bulb? I know they can still make those legally. I got
>>> so
>>>>>> tired of the florescent squiggly bulbs in our barn, try feeding
>>> horses
>>>>>> at 4 AM, when it's 0 degrees outside, all I would get is a faint
>>> glow.
>>>>>> Replaced all the bulbs with _300 watt_ incandescent bulbs, now I
>>>>>> actually see and work on my tan.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike M
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/4/2016 6:22 PM, charlie hill wrote:
>>>>>>> There you go again Steve.  I TOLD YOU IT IS A 100 WATT INCANDESCENT
>>>>> BULB.
>>>>>>> Did I say anything about a halogen bulb inside a incandescent
>>>>>>> envelope?
>>>>>>> I know you think I'm stupid but give it a break man.  Do you have
>>> to
>>>>>> argue
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> EVERYTHING anyone says to you??????????????????????????????
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Stephen Offiler
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 5:47 PM
>>>>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT LED question
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The act of Congress that imposed efficiency restrictions on
>>>>>>> lighting,
>>>>>>> effectively outlawing those old-school 100 watt incandescent bulbs,
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> signed into law by President Bush in 2007.  It's called the EISA,
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Energy Independence and Security Act.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is possible to manufacture a 100-watt bulb that meets EISA, with
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> halogen bulb inside a normal incandescent glass envelope.  It would
>>>> be
>>>>>>> cheaper to manufacture this design in low-labor-cost countries such
>>>> as
>>>>>>> China.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why does my local power company  subsidize the purchase of LED
>>>>>>> bulbs?
>>>>>>> Seems backward, doesn't it?  They are going to be selling me less
>>>>>>> electricity.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SO
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