[AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
Bo Hinch
bohinch at gmail.com
Fri Aug 14 08:31:11 PDT 2015
Cecil , would it be possible to get a MODEL & SERIAL # ????? of the
compressor in question .Bo Hinch
On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Cecil R Bearden <crbearden at copper.net>
wrote:
> There is a regulator valve there that controls the high pressure. The
> Leroi probably has something stuck from sitting,, just finding out which
> component is the problem.
>
> Cecil in OKla
>
>
>
> On 8/14/2015 9:28 AM, charlie hill wrote:
> > Cecil is that valve behind the control panel and above the air tank
> > in the piping that goes to the air outlets? If so, I've seen the guys
> > on the job tap on that valve with a wrench or something when the
> > compressor was acting up. As I said earlier, unfortunately or I guess
> > fortunately, I never worked on any of the compressors but have spent
> > thousands of hours on and around the job sites where we were running
> > compressors, at times multiple compressors on the same job.
> >
> > Charlie
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cecil R Bearden
> > Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 9:51 AM
> > To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> > Subject: Re: [AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
> >
> > I think the Leroi has problems with the minimum pressure valve
> > sticking... I have the manual for the later model Sullair compressor,
> > and it is very similar if not the same thing.. So, I will try again.
> >
> > Cecil
> >
> > On 8/14/2015 8:19 AM, charlie hill wrote:
> >> Cecil, have you checked the diaphragm and the vacuum piping
> >> going to it? In the back of my mind I was thinking that problem
> >> had to do with a bad diaphragm but couldn't remember for sure
> >> so I didn't say it.
> >>
> >> Charlie
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Cecil R Bearden
> >> Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 7:09 AM
> >> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> >> Subject: Re: [AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
> >>
> >> If these were diesel you could hold open the throttle and it would run.
> >> However with gasoline, The engine has to get ahead of the compressor.
> >> The Leroi has only a pressure regulator that has a line that goes to the
> >> valve in the intake line. I can put a board over the intake and leave
> >> only a small slit open and it will seem to relieve the load some.
> >> This did not seem to help the Sullair. The Sullair has a large diaphram
> >> linked to the governor and to a butterfly valve on the compressor. The
> >> manual on setting it requires the engine to run it up to minimum
> pressure.
> >>
> >> It is a big chore, but it looks like I am going to have to get the front
> >> cover end off of the engine and replace the timing belt. If I have to
> >> spend 4-6 hours to get this open, There is no way I am going to let it
> >> go back together without replacing the belt and idler that costs only
> >> $36........
> >>
> >> I have a small cummins in a road sweeper. It was running when we loaded
> >> it and hauled it here. Also have several overhead valve 6 cyl ford
> >> engines in sweepers. If the bell housings are the same, These2.3 liters
> >> may find another home. I cannot help but think a lot of my problems are
> >> the sorry excuse for gasoline we have now. I use only 93 Octane no
> >> ethanol, but it just does not have the power gasoline used to have...
> >> It takes a lot of tiem and trouble, but I could switch them to propane.
> >> I just need to make sure the engines are running well enough to put on
> >> propane. All the mechanics around here who would have known how to
> >> diagnose these are gone...
> >>
> >> Cecil in OKla
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 8/14/2015 12:12 AM, charlie hill wrote:
> >>> Cecil, I've seen this happen before on other compressors but
> >>> never had to work on them myself. I knew two people that
> >>> could have told me exactly what is wrong but unfortunately both
> >>> of them died in the last 18 months. From what he wrote
> >>> earlier I think Bo has a good handle on it. Maybe he can help.
> >>> I'll tell you this, it's something in the mechanism that controls the
> >>> pressure relief and the governor. Having never actually worked on
> >>> one of them myself I can't tell you exactly what but I've seen the
> >>> guys tie a piece of wire on the linkage and tie the other end off
> >>> to hold it open (or maybe closed) to make them run.
> >>> Now yours being gas instead of diesel it could be all together
> different
> >>> in the way it works but somewhere
> >>> there is a mechanical connection that unloads the compressor.
> >>>
> >>> Charlie
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Cecil R Bearden
> >>> Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 10:21 PM
> >>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> >>> Subject: Re: [AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
> >>>
> >>> What are the chances of having 2 ford industrial engines on air
> >>> compressors that will not pull the compressor up to pressure. I got he
> >>> Leroi running today, however, One time I got it up to 60PDI and
> >>> holding. However when you cut off the outlet valve and waited for it
> to
> >>> idle back, it never happened. Now the engine just loads up and maybe
> >>> will run 10psi any more and it dies............ These things are not
> >>> worth a service ticket at a dealership, and trying to find someone like
> >>> me who used to work on this junk is out of the question......
> >>>
> >>> Cecil in Okla
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 8/12/2015 11:38 AM, Spencer Yost wrote:
> >>>> My father-in-law bought a Ford Courier(Ford engine not Mazda engine)
> in
> >>>> 1978. He gave it to me in 2004 or so after he wore it out and beat
> it
> >>>> up. My son shortly after was towing his boat and had the engine
> >>>> overheat when a radiator hose busted. Didn't hurt the head or
> gasket,
> >>>> but coked up the oil passages in the overhead cam for the valve
> levers.
> >>>> A few levers were starved for oil and one wore out enough that it
> would
> >>>> fall off its post occasionally.
> >>>>
> >>>> I got very fast and good at removing the air cleaner, valve cover,
> >>>> turning
> >>>> the engine, putting the lever back on and reassembling. I think I had
> >>>> it
> >>>> down to 5-10 mins. I finally put a reman-ed head on it because the
> >>>> machine shop wanted more to ream the coke out.
> >>>>
> >>>> Body was nearly rusted out when I sold it about 4-5 years ago. Ran
> >>>> great
> >>>> and had manual choke to smooth out cold running. I kinda miss that
> >>>> truck
> >>>> now.
> >>>>
> >>>> Spencer
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Aug 12, 2015, at 8:40, <rlgoss at twc.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The fortunate thing about the Courier was that it did NOT have an
> >>>>> interference engine in it. I drove one until the timing belt broke,
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> found out that no damage could occur inside.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Larry
> >>>>> ---- charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Cecil, that old Courier that I drove ran rough as a cob all the
> time.
> >>>>> It started hard and rattled and shook but it never left me beside the
> >>>>> road. I figured at the time it might be the timing belt on it and
> >>>>> really
> >>>>> hoped it would let go so they would get me something half decent to
> >>>>> drive but it never did in the months I drove it. I don’t like and
> try
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> avoid any engines with overhead cams particularly if they are
> >>>>> "interference"
> >>>>> engines. I know those engines are very common now and mostly
> >>>>> reliable and good performers but I'm old school enough that I want my
> >>>>> cam shafts gear or gear and chain driven.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Charlie
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Cecil R Bearden
> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 11:03 PM
> >>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Charlie:
> >>>>> I wondered about the timing belt. This compressor will sit for a
> month
> >>>>> or 3 then get used for many times as much as an hour at a time... It
> is
> >>>>> used to blow off hay balers, hay swathers, mowers, real dirty work.
> >>>>> Have
> >>>>> not sandblasted in many years... I questioned a Ford friend of mine
> >>>>> about maybe the timing belt stuck to the toothed pulley while it sat
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> when I started it, it came off and would be out of time.. I assume
> the
> >>>>> easiest way would be to check the timing at the distributor. Trying
> to
> >>>>> get to the timing pulleys to view them is at least a 4 hour job....
> I
> >>>>> would have to remove the radiator, the top section of the enclosure,
> >>>>> and then the timing cover. I used to do this in about 2 hours, now,
> >>>>> it
> >>>>> is a day or two job...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cecil in OKla
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The fortunate thing about the Courier was that it did NOT have an
> >>>>> interference engine in it. I drove one until the timing belt broke,
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> found out that no damage could occur inside.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Larry
> >>>>> ---- charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Cecil, that old Courier that I drove ran rough as a cob all the
> time.
> >>>>> It started hard and rattled and shook but it never left me beside the
> >>>>> road. I figured at the time it might be the timing belt on it and
> >>>>> really
> >>>>> hoped it would let go so they would get me something half decent to
> >>>>> drive but it never did in the months I drove it. I don’t like and
> try
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> avoid any engines with overhead cams particularly if they are
> >>>>> "interference"
> >>>>> engines. I know those engines are very common now and mostly
> >>>>> reliable and good performers but I'm old school enough that I want my
> >>>>> cam shafts gear or gear and chain driven.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Charlie
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Cecil R Bearden
> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 11:03 PM
> >>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Charlie:
> >>>>> I wondered about the timing belt. This compressor will sit for a
> month
> >>>>> or 3 then get used for many times as much as an hour at a time... It
> is
> >>>>> used to blow off hay balers, hay swathers, mowers, real dirty work.
> >>>>> Have
> >>>>> not sandblasted in many years... I questioned a Ford friend of mine
> >>>>> about maybe the timing belt stuck to the toothed pulley while it sat
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> when I started it, it came off and would be out of time.. I assume
> the
> >>>>> easiest way would be to check the timing at the distributor. Trying
> to
> >>>>> get to the timing pulleys to view them is at least a 4 hour job....
> I
> >>>>> would have to remove the radiator, the top section of the enclosure,
> >>>>> and then the timing cover. I used to do this in about 2 hours, now,
> >>>>> it
> >>>>> is a day or two job...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cecil in OKla
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 8/11/2015 9:48 PM, charlie hill wrote:
> >>>>>> Cecil, I wouldn't doubt that Sullair and Leroi are the same.
> >>>>>> It could well be. As I think about it, my preference for Leroi
> >>>>>> probably
> >>>>>> has more to do with what was available to us from a local dealer
> that
> >>>>>> we trusted and dealer support than anything else. Back in the late
> >>>>>> 70's to early 80's we had an Atlas Copco compressor with an air
> cooled
> >>>>>> Deutz diesel. it was a real workhorse but over the years we had to
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>>> the air end (screw compressor) rebuilt a couple of times. 185 CFM
> >>>>>> machines
> >>>>>> were the smallest compressors we ever used. Most were 365 or 375
> CFM
> >>>>>> with
> >>>>>> some 750's and occasionally an 1100 or so.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Charlie
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Cecil R Bearden
> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 8:29 PM
> >>>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This is a 1985 model. I found the operators manual and parts list,
> >>>>>> all
> >>>>>> that is available. I also got a download from Sullair factory, they
> >>>>>> are
> >>>>>> as helpful as can be for a 30 yr old machine... The Sullair
> dealer
> >>>>>> here in OKC seemed to have a tech who new about these, but his
> advice
> >>>>>> did not help....Since this is an early model, it does start under
> >>>>>> load,
> >>>>>> until it gets to 40psi, then the minimum pressure valve is supposed
> to
> >>>>>> take over and bring it up to operating pressure. I really do not
> see
> >>>>>> how that works because I had it apart, and it is more like a back
> >>>>>> pressure ( check) valve in the output line... This one does not
> have a
> >>>>>> cylinder on the throttle, it has a diaphram that is connected to the
> >>>>>> governor and to the butterfly on the intake. The later models
> have
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>> start unloader valve. I have all new electrical parts and it
> really
> >>>>>> does not start as well as it did...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Funny thing, I bought a 185 Leroi compressor from the OK
> DOT. It
> >>>>>> was
> >>>>>> listed as diesel, I bought it cheap and never looked at it. We got
> it
> >>>>>> home and when I looked under the cover, it was
> gasoline...............
> >>>>>> Too Late. I looked at it a today as I was getting desperate,
> and
> >>>>>> it
> >>>>>> is the same compressor as the one I have, but it is a little later
> as
> >>>>>> it
> >>>>>> has the unloader valve on it.... Same engine and looks like the
> same
> >>>>>> compressor.. Uses same filters too...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I took the carb off the Sullair and could not find anything really
> >>>>>> wrong
> >>>>>> with it. It was fairly clean, but the inside was sooted up. The
> >>>>>> Crankcase vent from the valve cover goes in just above the carb air
> >>>>>> horn. The engine may be in worse condition than I thought... I
> have
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>> carb kit ordered for it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The leroi has a key start and I don't have a key. It is a universal
> >>>>>> switch, but to get in to the back side of the dash panel to
> replace
> >>>>>> the switch takes a contortionist with 4 ft arms. I found a few keys
> to
> >>>>>> those switches as I bought a lot of old DOT equip when I got this
> >>>>>> one... I got the flat fixed and moved it to the shade tree, put
> in a
> >>>>>> new battery and it cranked!!! The old battery had a date of April
> 04
> >>>>>> on it, so it has been sitting for a while....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Got some Dr. appts tomorrow, so maybe by tomorrow afternoon I can
> see
> >>>>>> if something will run..... This has been the year for
> breakdowns...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 8/11/2015 5:37 PM, charlie hill wrote:
> >>>>>>> Following along with what Bo said about Never Ever putting a body
> >>>>>>> part on a screw compressor intake and on my similar comments
> earlier.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The screw compressors are basically the same device as the roots
> >>>>>>> blowers
> >>>>>>> that are on the old 2 stroke Detroit Diesels and on a lot of race
> >>>>>>> cars.
> >>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>> once
> >>>>>>> heard about a mechanic that leaned across a running detroit with
> part
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> air intake disassembled. His belly got too close, the blower
> sucked
> >>>>>>> his
> >>>>>>> belly
> >>>>>>> against it and then in it and eviscerated him, killing him on the
> >>>>>>> spot.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A centrifugal blower is a different story. You can "unload" it by
> >>>>>>> partially
> >>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>> fully blocking the air intake. I have a huge centrifugal blower
> >>>>>>> powered
> >>>>>>> by
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>> 5 hp 3 phase motor that is hooked to a dust collector cabinet
> >>>>>>> (industrial
> >>>>>>> size).
> >>>>>>> It has a butterfly on the outlet of the blower and I have to
> >>>>>>> partially
> >>>>>>> shut
> >>>>>>> it, unloading
> >>>>>>> the blower, in order for the 5 hp motor to start and get up to
> speed
> >>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>> only applies to centrifugal blowers. Roots blowers or screw
> >>>>>>> compressors
> >>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>> a totally
> >>>>>>> different animal and they WILL HURT OR KILL YOU.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Bo, I'm not at all familiar with that Mazda powered Sullair but
> I've
> >>>>>>> been
> >>>>>>> around a lot of
> >>>>>>> Sullair compressors and they do a fine job! I prefer LeRoi
> >>>>>>> compressors
> >>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>> will take a
> >>>>>>> Sulair with no hesitation.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Charlie
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>> From: Bo Hinch
> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 2:19 PM
> >>>>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Cecil , those were some very nice little compressors and from my
> past
> >>>>>>> experience with them , I would first remove the carburetor , look
> in
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> barrel ( engine side ) right next to the butterfly and you should
> see
> >>>>>>> at
> >>>>>>> least three very tiny little holes .Pull a bristle out of a wire
> >>>>>>> brush
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> use it to ream / clean out holes and with carburator apart , blow
> all
> >>>>>>> air
> >>>>>>> passages from inside out with air pressure or carburetor cleaner .
> >>>>>>> After reassembling carb. , I would remove air intake cover. I think
> >>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>> will find it stuck open ( should be closed with little to no air
> >>>>>>> pressure )
> >>>>>>> and determine why it is stuck open such as a blown o`ring hanging
> up
> >>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>> whatever . You also have a regulator valve that operates the air
> >>>>>>> intake
> >>>>>>> .
> >>>>>>> Just follow the small line going into the air intake manifold . I
> >>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>> also has a diaphram in it that does go bad . Also I disagree with
> >>>>>>> quote
> >>>>>>> from your previous email
> >>>>>>> ((( The engine must start under load until the
> >>>>>>> compressor reaches 40psi, then some regulation begins.)))
> >>>>>>> Last but not least , NEVER , NEVER put any part of a human body
> over
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> compressor air intake .If I can get some junk moved around , I
> think
> >>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>> still have a manual on this unit which would be very helpful to
> you .
> >>>>>>> Bo Hinch in s/w louisiana
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 8:03 AM, Cecil R Bearden
> >>>>>>> <crbearden at copper.net>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The cold natured problem seems to be typical of these. The
> >>>>>>>> factorey
> >>>>>>>> says I should have an idle warm up valve, there never was one
> .....
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Cecil in OKla
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 8/11/2015 7:18 AM, Doug Tallman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Cecil, It sounds like carburetion issues or a big vacuum leak.
> I'd
> >>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>> you would hear the hiss of a leak that big. Maybe try spraying a
> >>>>>>>>> little
> >>>>>>>>> carb cleaner around the manifold and see if it picks up. Doug T
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On 8/11/2015 7:09 AM, Cecil R Bearden wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Sullair 185 w/ ford/Mazda 4cyl gas engine. Compressor always
> has
> >>>>>>>>>> been
> >>>>>>>>>> cold natured. Had to be completely warmed up before choke could
> >>>>>>>>>> be
> >>>>>>>>>> shut
> >>>>>>>>>> off. Open air line valve and engine would die without choke on
> at
> >>>>>>>>>> least
> >>>>>>>>>> half way. Working fine a month ago. Now, Engine tries to
> start
> >>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>> gets up to idle speed but compressor is loading engine and it
> >>>>>>>>>> cannot
> >>>>>>>>>> get
> >>>>>>>>>> up to operating speed. If compressor could be disconnected from
> >>>>>>>>>> engine,
> >>>>>>>>>> it would get up to operating speed. Have replaced fuel pump, and
> >>>>>>>>>> plug
> >>>>>>>>>> wires. Spark plug had some surface carbon but not really gunked
> >>>>>>>>>> up.
> >>>>>>>>>> took air intake elbow off of compressor and tried to cut off air
> >>>>>>>>>> intake
> >>>>>>>>>> to allow engine to start, but it nearly sucked my hand into the
> >>>>>>>>>> pipe.
> >>>>>>>>>> In the past distributor,ignition control box, and coil have been
> >>>>>>>>>> replaced. Have worked on engines gas, propane and diesel for 50
> >>>>>>>>>> years
> >>>>>>>>>> and this one has me beat...... This is the reason I like
> >>>>>>>>>> Diesel!!!
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I use this for sandblasting and blowing off the round baler.
> >>>>>>>>>> Right
> >>>>>>>>>> now,
> >>>>>>>>>> the baler has some hay lodged between the belts and the rollers
> on
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> back side and it has the baler bound up. The only way to get
> this
> >>>>>>>>>> out
> >>>>>>>>>> is to use a lot of high pressure air and cut the hay out with
> the
> >>>>>>>>>> air.
> >>>>>>>>>> Or, cut the belts pull them out with the loader and re-splice.
> I
> >>>>>>>>>> did
> >>>>>>>>>> not blow off the baler last time i used it, it was trying to
> rain
> >>>>>>>>>> after
> >>>>>>>>>> I put the new bearing in that was causing the fires. The hay
> >>>>>>>>>> builds
> >>>>>>>>>> up
> >>>>>>>>>> in the back above the top of the bale chamber, and causes the
> >>>>>>>>>> belts
> >>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>> stick. Really dry hay is the worst problem...
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
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