[AT] OT - bridge replacement

Thu Feb 28 09:47:54 PST 2013

Mike, if your native soil is highly organic and holds a lot of water
you probably want to use some sort of sand that will compact well
with stone on top for the road bed.

Around here we have a lot of highly organic, swampy land.  Here is
how contractors build a highway.  They dig down and remove some of
the organic material based on what their engineers tell them.  Then they
lay down the geo textile. Then they back fill with sand and compact it until 
it meets the specs.
Then they put down a layer of crushed stone which
is also compacted.  Then the pavement goes on top of that.

In your case,  lay the geo textile in the bottom and up the sides
so that it runs down the bank, across the bottom and
up the other bank.   Make sure enough laps over the top of the banks
so that it doesn't sag down in the hole when you backfill.
Overlap it about a foot or so on each run.
Lay the drain tile on top of it and fill with sand.
If you get a long drain tile you might not
need to worry with the headwalls I talked about.  It all depends on
how long the pipe is in relationship to the width of the road and depth of 
the ditch.
The fill dirt needs to be able to slope gently into the ditch or it's going 
to wash out
unless you have the headwalls.
Compact the sand until it is good and solid and put the stone over it.
You'll always have to maintain the stone over the years.

I don't know guys, should he put the drain tile on top of the fabric or 
under it?

Note:  it might be cheaper to build another bridge and I agree with you 
about not contacting the
authorities.

Charlie

-----Original Message----- 
From: Mike
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 11:30 AM
To: Antique tractor email discussion group
Subject: Re: [AT] OT - bridge replacement

A lot of good information guys, I appreciate it.  I've seen contractors
using the black fabric before, but didn't know the exact purpose, kind
of like heavy duty landscape fabric right? I'm a little (lot) hesitant
to get the DNR or drain commission involved, I'd rather ask forgiveness
than permission. They have a habit of turning a mole hill into a
mountain. If it were a running stream, I would think differently, but
this thing gets stagnant in the early summer, that's how slow it flows.
Mattias, I didn't know that about frost in the ground. Like Joe said we
get frost to about 4 feet here in Michigan, so that would be an issue.
So should I fill in the majority of the bridge with native soil? It's a
heavy peat type soil that holds water like crazy.
Mike

On 2/28/2013 10:50 AM, charlie hill wrote:
> Mattias, I guess you are talking about what we call "frost heave".
> That's a good point.  That's why my first response was to build
> a head wall at each end of the drain pipe.  Once that is done then
> the pipe can be covered over with soil that is consistent with
> the soil on either side of the ditch and after compacting it should be
> stable.   Then stone can be placed in the road bed that is the same as the
> rest of the road bed.
>
> Charlie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mattias Kessén
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 10:16 AM
> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> Subject: Re: [AT] OT - bridge replacement
>
> Ok, languages are interesting. For frost in the ground we use the word
> "tjäle" (the a in the middle should have two dots and is pronounced
> somewhat like the first e in never and the at the end as the last e in
> never). So I can that is hardto dig through tjälen. The n at the end has
> the purpose of the in front of the word. Class dismissed.
>
> Why I asked isn't because I think you have permafrost (the exact same word
> as in swedish BTW) outside Alaska and from what I can remember none of the
> list mebers are situated there. Anyway I believe Mike have gotten some
> really good advice, but if the ground freezes he shouldn't use to good
> material like makadam, crushed concrete etc. if not the road consists of
> equal material. For those of you who don't know about this I'll explain.
> Since frost in the ground will make most materials that holds water expand
> about 9% he will get a low spot where he filled with better material.
>
>
> Mattias
>
>
> 2013/2/28 Joe Hazewinkel <jahaze at aol.com>
>
>> The frost line is about four feet in sandy soils in Michigan.  Slightly
>> higher in heavy soils.  However, in the absence of snow cover, the frost
>> can go much deeper and freeze water lines at ten feet or more.  It does
>> happen every few years.
>>
>> Enjoy, Joe
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone just for you
>>
>> On Feb 28, 2013, at 7:56 AM, "charlie hill" <charliehill at embarqmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Ken,  my guess was that Mattias was talking about anchoring the bridge
>> into
>>> the permafrost but I don't know.
>>> I also don't know of anywhere in the US other than Alaska that has
>>> permafrost.
>>> Here where I live the frost line is about 8" and we haven't seen it
>> freeze
>>> that deep in a number of years.
>>> Maybe someone can fill us in on the frost line in the northern states.
>>> Ralph answered that same question
>>> about his location in Saskatchewan a while back I believe but I don't
>>> remember the details.
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Ken Knierim
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 7:30 AM
>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT - bridge replacement
>>>
>>> Charlie, Mattias
>>>
>>> Permafrost and freeze-line are in that area. In my experience:
>>> Freeze-line is how deep the ground freezes during winter.
>>> Permafrost is permanently frozen ground (think parts of the Arctic that
>>> never thaw).
>>>
>>> Back in Montana the freeze-line would get to 6 feet and water lines had
>> to
>>> be deeper than that.
>>> Here in Central AZ the freeze line is about 1/4". Ground temp during
>> summer
>>> here is usually above 80 degrees and pools have to be cooled.
>>>
>>> Spring has arrived here... the peach and apple trees are in full bloom
>> and
>>> the citrus is falling off the trees. Great tractor weather!
>>>
>>> Ken in AZ
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 5:13 AM, charlie hill
>>> <charliehill at embarqmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mattias,  I don't think there is an English translation for that.... at
>>>> least I don't know what you mean by it.
>>>>
>>>> Charlie
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Mattias Kessén
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 5:28 AM
>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT - bridge replacement
>>>>
>>>> Mike,
>>>> Is this bridge situated where there are/can be frost in the ground?
>>>> BTW isn't there one English word for "frost in the ground"?
>>>>
>>>> Mattias
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2013/2/28 charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Spencer,  that fabric is a good idea.   I never have known a trade
>>>> name
>>>>> for it but in construction documents it's usually called "geo-textile
>>>>> fabric" or something similar to that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Spencer Yost
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:55 PM
>>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT - bridge replacement
>>>>>
>>>>> I might suggest you backfill to grade with dirt, then put the gravel
>>>>> on
>>>>> "road paper" (I doubt that is the right name) to keep the gravel from
>>>>> disappearing into the dirt.  It looks a lot like the back paper you
>>>>> might
>>>>> use use strawberry rows or gardens but is heavier.  I can usually get
>> it
>>>>> pretty reasonably priced. I spent 300 for a big roll the last time
>>>>> that
>>>>> probably had 100 yards on it.  So about a buck a foot 10 years ago.
>>>> Keeps
>>>>> most of the weeds out too(not sure that matters for a tote path
>> though).
>>>>> Even if you backfill entirely with gravel this might help some with
>>>> gravel
>>>>> migration.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope that helps,
>>>>>
>>>>> Spencer
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 26, 2013, at 23:35, Mike <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Our property is divided in two by a drainage ditch that is only full
>>>>>> after a rain, and in the spring/early summer. There is one bridge
>>>> across
>>>>>> that is made from wood, and it is starting to fail. I use the bridge
>>>>>> quite a bit to bring firewood up to the house with my MF 255 w/ FEL.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> can see the wood is rotting and it is starting to sag as I go over
>>>>>> it,
>>>>>> coupled with the fact that it only leaves me about 6" to spare on
>>>> either
>>>>>> side, it has to go. I would like to just remove it, and replace it
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> a 12"or 14" drain pipe covered with "gravel". Any ideas on what type
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> stone or gravel I should use so that it will stay stable and not turn
>>>> to
>>>>>> soup in the spring? Thanks, Mike
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>>>>
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