[AT] OT - bridge replacement

Mattias Kessén davidbrown950 at gmail.com
Thu Feb 28 10:16:05 PST 2013 

You should try to do something as similiar to the road as possible. there
must be something else/more than native soil in it if it isn't a muddy
trench durin springtime. In the slopes you can use stones or makadam.

Mattias


2013/2/28 charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com>

> Mike, if your native soil is highly organic and holds a lot of water
> you probably want to use some sort of sand that will compact well
> with stone on top for the road bed.
>
> Around here we have a lot of highly organic, swampy land.  Here is
> how contractors build a highway.  They dig down and remove some of
> the organic material based on what their engineers tell them.  Then they
> lay down the geo textile. Then they back fill with sand and compact it
> until
> it meets the specs.
> Then they put down a layer of crushed stone which
> is also compacted.  Then the pavement goes on top of that.
>
> In your case,  lay the geo textile in the bottom and up the sides
> so that it runs down the bank, across the bottom and
> up the other bank.   Make sure enough laps over the top of the banks
> so that it doesn't sag down in the hole when you backfill.
> Overlap it about a foot or so on each run.
> Lay the drain tile on top of it and fill with sand.
> If you get a long drain tile you might not
> need to worry with the headwalls I talked about.  It all depends on
> how long the pipe is in relationship to the width of the road and depth of
> the ditch.
> The fill dirt needs to be able to slope gently into the ditch or it's going
> to wash out
> unless you have the headwalls.
> Compact the sand until it is good and solid and put the stone over it.
> You'll always have to maintain the stone over the years.
>
> I don't know guys, should he put the drain tile on top of the fabric or
> under it?
>
> Note:  it might be cheaper to build another bridge and I agree with you
> about not contacting the
> authorities.
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 11:30 AM
> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> Subject: Re: [AT] OT - bridge replacement
>
> A lot of good information guys, I appreciate it.  I've seen contractors
> using the black fabric before, but didn't know the exact purpose, kind
> of like heavy duty landscape fabric right? I'm a little (lot) hesitant
> to get the DNR or drain commission involved, I'd rather ask forgiveness
> than permission. They have a habit of turning a mole hill into a
> mountain. If it were a running stream, I would think differently, but
> this thing gets stagnant in the early summer, that's how slow it flows.
> Mattias, I didn't know that about frost in the ground. Like Joe said we
> get frost to about 4 feet here in Michigan, so that would be an issue.
> So should I fill in the majority of the bridge with native soil? It's a
> heavy peat type soil that holds water like crazy.
> Mike
>
> On 2/28/2013 10:50 AM, charlie hill wrote:
> > Mattias, I guess you are talking about what we call "frost heave".
> > That's a good point.  That's why my first response was to build
> > a head wall at each end of the drain pipe.  Once that is done then
> > the pipe can be covered over with soil that is consistent with
> > the soil on either side of the ditch and after compacting it should be
> > stable.   Then stone can be placed in the road bed that is the same as
> the
> > rest of the road bed.
> >
> > Charlie
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mattias Kessén
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 10:16 AM
> > To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> > Subject: Re: [AT] OT - bridge replacement
> >
> > Ok, languages are interesting. For frost in the ground we use the word
> > "tjäle" (the a in the middle should have two dots and is pronounced
> > somewhat like the first e in never and the at the end as the last e in
> > never). So I can that is hardto dig through tjälen. The n at the end has
> > the purpose of the in front of the word. Class dismissed.
> >
> > Why I asked isn't because I think you have permafrost (the exact same
> word
> > as in swedish BTW) outside Alaska and from what I can remember none of
> the
> > list mebers are situated there. Anyway I believe Mike have gotten some
> > really good advice, but if the ground freezes he shouldn't use to good
> > material like makadam, crushed concrete etc. if not the road consists of
> > equal material. For those of you who don't know about this I'll explain.
> > Since frost in the ground will make most materials that holds water
> expand
> > about 9% he will get a low spot where he filled with better material.
> >
> >
> > Mattias
> >
> >
> > 2013/2/28 Joe Hazewinkel <jahaze at aol.com>
> >
> >> The frost line is about four feet in sandy soils in Michigan.  Slightly
> >> higher in heavy soils.  However, in the absence of snow cover, the frost
> >> can go much deeper and freeze water lines at ten feet or more.  It does
> >> happen every few years.
> >>
> >> Enjoy, Joe
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone just for you
> >>
> >> On Feb 28, 2013, at 7:56 AM, "charlie hill" <charliehill at embarqmail.com
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Ken,  my guess was that Mattias was talking about anchoring the bridge
> >> into
> >>> the permafrost but I don't know.
> >>> I also don't know of anywhere in the US other than Alaska that has
> >>> permafrost.
> >>> Here where I live the frost line is about 8" and we haven't seen it
> >> freeze
> >>> that deep in a number of years.
> >>> Maybe someone can fill us in on the frost line in the northern states.
> >>> Ralph answered that same question
> >>> about his location in Saskatchewan a while back I believe but I don't
> >>> remember the details.
> >>>
> >>> Charlie
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Ken Knierim
> >>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 7:30 AM
> >>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> >>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT - bridge replacement
> >>>
> >>> Charlie, Mattias
> >>>
> >>> Permafrost and freeze-line are in that area. In my experience:
> >>> Freeze-line is how deep the ground freezes during winter.
> >>> Permafrost is permanently frozen ground (think parts of the Arctic that
> >>> never thaw).
> >>>
> >>> Back in Montana the freeze-line would get to 6 feet and water lines had
> >> to
> >>> be deeper than that.
> >>> Here in Central AZ the freeze line is about 1/4". Ground temp during
> >> summer
> >>> here is usually above 80 degrees and pools have to be cooled.
> >>>
> >>> Spring has arrived here... the peach and apple trees are in full bloom
> >> and
> >>> the citrus is falling off the trees. Great tractor weather!
> >>>
> >>> Ken in AZ
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 5:13 AM, charlie hill
> >>> <charliehill at embarqmail.com>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Mattias,  I don't think there is an English translation for that....
> at
> >>>> least I don't know what you mean by it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Charlie
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Mattias Kessén
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 5:28 AM
> >>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> >>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT - bridge replacement
> >>>>
> >>>> Mike,
> >>>> Is this bridge situated where there are/can be frost in the ground?
> >>>> BTW isn't there one English word for "frost in the ground"?
> >>>>
> >>>> Mattias
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 2013/2/28 charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi Spencer,  that fabric is a good idea.   I never have known a trade
> >>>> name
> >>>>> for it but in construction documents it's usually called "geo-textile
> >>>>> fabric" or something similar to that.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Charlie
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Spencer Yost
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:55 PM
> >>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT - bridge replacement
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I might suggest you backfill to grade with dirt, then put the gravel
> >>>>> on
> >>>>> "road paper" (I doubt that is the right name) to keep the gravel from
> >>>>> disappearing into the dirt.  It looks a lot like the back paper you
> >>>>> might
> >>>>> use use strawberry rows or gardens but is heavier.  I can usually get
> >> it
> >>>>> pretty reasonably priced. I spent 300 for a big roll the last time
> >>>>> that
> >>>>> probably had 100 yards on it.  So about a buck a foot 10 years ago.
> >>>> Keeps
> >>>>> most of the weeds out too(not sure that matters for a tote path
> >> though).
> >>>>> Even if you backfill entirely with gravel this might help some with
> >>>> gravel
> >>>>> migration.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hope that helps,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Spencer
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Feb 26, 2013, at 23:35, Mike <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Our property is divided in two by a drainage ditch that is only full
> >>>>>> after a rain, and in the spring/early summer. There is one bridge
> >>>> across
> >>>>>> that is made from wood, and it is starting to fail. I use the bridge
> >>>>>> quite a bit to bring firewood up to the house with my MF 255 w/ FEL.
> >>>>>> I
> >>>>>> can see the wood is rotting and it is starting to sag as I go over
> >>>>>> it,
> >>>>>> coupled with the fact that it only leaves me about 6" to spare on
> >>>> either
> >>>>>> side, it has to go. I would like to just remove it, and replace it
> >>>>>> with
> >>>>>> a 12"or 14" drain pipe covered with "gravel". Any ideas on what type
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> stone or gravel I should use so that it will stay stable and not
> turn
> >>>> to
> >>>>>> soup in the spring? Thanks, Mike
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