[AT] OT - bridge replacement

Mike meulenms at gmx.com
Thu Feb 28 08:30:29 PST 2013


A lot of good information guys, I appreciate it.  I've seen contractors 
using the black fabric before, but didn't know the exact purpose, kind 
of like heavy duty landscape fabric right? I'm a little (lot) hesitant 
to get the DNR or drain commission involved, I'd rather ask forgiveness 
than permission. They have a habit of turning a mole hill into a 
mountain. If it were a running stream, I would think differently, but 
this thing gets stagnant in the early summer, that's how slow it flows. 
Mattias, I didn't know that about frost in the ground. Like Joe said we 
get frost to about 4 feet here in Michigan, so that would be an issue. 
So should I fill in the majority of the bridge with native soil? It's a 
heavy peat type soil that holds water like crazy.
Mike

On 2/28/2013 10:50 AM, charlie hill wrote:
> Mattias, I guess you are talking about what we call "frost heave".
> That's a good point.  That's why my first response was to build
> a head wall at each end of the drain pipe.  Once that is done then
> the pipe can be covered over with soil that is consistent with
> the soil on either side of the ditch and after compacting it should be
> stable.   Then stone can be placed in the road bed that is the same as the
> rest of the road bed.
>
> Charlie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mattias Kessén
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 10:16 AM
> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> Subject: Re: [AT] OT - bridge replacement
>
> Ok, languages are interesting. For frost in the ground we use the word
> "tjäle" (the a in the middle should have two dots and is pronounced
> somewhat like the first e in never and the at the end as the last e in
> never). So I can that is hardto dig through tjälen. The n at the end has
> the purpose of the in front of the word. Class dismissed.
>
> Why I asked isn't because I think you have permafrost (the exact same word
> as in swedish BTW) outside Alaska and from what I can remember none of the
> list mebers are situated there. Anyway I believe Mike have gotten some
> really good advice, but if the ground freezes he shouldn't use to good
> material like makadam, crushed concrete etc. if not the road consists of
> equal material. For those of you who don't know about this I'll explain.
> Since frost in the ground will make most materials that holds water expand
> about 9% he will get a low spot where he filled with better material.
>
>
> Mattias
>
>
> 2013/2/28 Joe Hazewinkel <jahaze at aol.com>
>
>> The frost line is about four feet in sandy soils in Michigan.  Slightly
>> higher in heavy soils.  However, in the absence of snow cover, the frost
>> can go much deeper and freeze water lines at ten feet or more.  It does
>> happen every few years.
>>
>> Enjoy, Joe
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone just for you
>>
>> On Feb 28, 2013, at 7:56 AM, "charlie hill" <charliehill at embarqmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Ken,  my guess was that Mattias was talking about anchoring the bridge
>> into
>>> the permafrost but I don't know.
>>> I also don't know of anywhere in the US other than Alaska that has
>>> permafrost.
>>> Here where I live the frost line is about 8" and we haven't seen it
>> freeze
>>> that deep in a number of years.
>>> Maybe someone can fill us in on the frost line in the northern states.
>>> Ralph answered that same question
>>> about his location in Saskatchewan a while back I believe but I don't
>>> remember the details.
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Ken Knierim
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 7:30 AM
>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT - bridge replacement
>>>
>>> Charlie, Mattias
>>>
>>> Permafrost and freeze-line are in that area. In my experience:
>>> Freeze-line is how deep the ground freezes during winter.
>>> Permafrost is permanently frozen ground (think parts of the Arctic that
>>> never thaw).
>>>
>>> Back in Montana the freeze-line would get to 6 feet and water lines had
>> to
>>> be deeper than that.
>>> Here in Central AZ the freeze line is about 1/4". Ground temp during
>> summer
>>> here is usually above 80 degrees and pools have to be cooled.
>>>
>>> Spring has arrived here... the peach and apple trees are in full bloom
>> and
>>> the citrus is falling off the trees. Great tractor weather!
>>>
>>> Ken in AZ
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 5:13 AM, charlie hill
>>> <charliehill at embarqmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mattias,  I don't think there is an English translation for that.... at
>>>> least I don't know what you mean by it.
>>>>
>>>> Charlie
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Mattias Kessén
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 5:28 AM
>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT - bridge replacement
>>>>
>>>> Mike,
>>>> Is this bridge situated where there are/can be frost in the ground?
>>>> BTW isn't there one English word for "frost in the ground"?
>>>>
>>>> Mattias
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2013/2/28 charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Spencer,  that fabric is a good idea.   I never have known a trade
>>>> name
>>>>> for it but in construction documents it's usually called "geo-textile
>>>>> fabric" or something similar to that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Spencer Yost
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:55 PM
>>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT - bridge replacement
>>>>>
>>>>> I might suggest you backfill to grade with dirt, then put the gravel
>>>>> on
>>>>> "road paper" (I doubt that is the right name) to keep the gravel from
>>>>> disappearing into the dirt.  It looks a lot like the back paper you
>>>>> might
>>>>> use use strawberry rows or gardens but is heavier.  I can usually get
>> it
>>>>> pretty reasonably priced. I spent 300 for a big roll the last time
>>>>> that
>>>>> probably had 100 yards on it.  So about a buck a foot 10 years ago.
>>>> Keeps
>>>>> most of the weeds out too(not sure that matters for a tote path
>> though).
>>>>> Even if you backfill entirely with gravel this might help some with
>>>> gravel
>>>>> migration.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope that helps,
>>>>>
>>>>> Spencer
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 26, 2013, at 23:35, Mike <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Our property is divided in two by a drainage ditch that is only full
>>>>>> after a rain, and in the spring/early summer. There is one bridge
>>>> across
>>>>>> that is made from wood, and it is starting to fail. I use the bridge
>>>>>> quite a bit to bring firewood up to the house with my MF 255 w/ FEL.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> can see the wood is rotting and it is starting to sag as I go over
>>>>>> it,
>>>>>> coupled with the fact that it only leaves me about 6" to spare on
>>>> either
>>>>>> side, it has to go. I would like to just remove it, and replace it
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> a 12"or 14" drain pipe covered with "gravel". Any ideas on what type
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> stone or gravel I should use so that it will stay stable and not turn
>>>> to
>>>>>> soup in the spring? Thanks, Mike
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> www.rodjagard.n.nu
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