[AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis

Wed Feb 11 16:13:42 PST 2009

Just a run a way message Gene.  I for one forgot all about changing the 
heading.

Sorry
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gene Dotson" <gdotsly at watchtv.net>
To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis

>    What I don't understand is that when I open a message titled "orange
> tractor" I see a whole string about computer diagnostics. Did the orange
> tractor get lost in the mud, or did posters forget to change the header so
> we can automatically delete it?
>
>                Gene
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ernst Borchert" <eb3 at shelby.net>
> To: "'Antique tractor email discussion group'"
> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 11:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis
>
>
>> You guys are unbelievable. How you can turn a picture of a big
>> orange tractor into a pissing contest is beyond me. This is an antique
>> tractor forum and therefore tractors with computers are not part of this
>> forum. There are forums to discuss these.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
>> [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of
>> hank at millerfarm.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:34 AM
>> To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com
>> Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis
>>
>>
>> Yes I work for OTC, as such I have to toe the line.   I hope you are
>> not surprised - if not you need a rude awakening as to how the real
>> world works soon (until then please stay out of voting booths or
>> anyplace else where you make important decisions).  That is also why I
>> won't comment on (someone else's complaint) about email.  I don't know
>> the answer and couldn't comment if I did.  If I see the right person
>> to ask I will, but I only know my area, which is the program.
>>
>> As for is it 80% or 50% that the computer knows?  Well I don't really
>> know.  I'm guessing.  However when looking at the guess don't forget
>> that if the computer tells you the right part to replace you are
>> looking at 1 hour of work, most of which is waiting for the
>> replacement part to arrive, and not wrench time.   If the computer
>> doesn't know you are looking at hours of diagnostics, and several
>> visits.   The better mechanics will see more of these problems as well
>> because the parts replacers tend to work at cheaper chain places, so
>> the typical cheapskate will go there first.  (Most of the chains have
>> a bunch or parts replacers and then on really good mechanic for the
>> hard problem, if your problem gets to their good mechanic you should
>> be fine, but getting it there...)  So the perspective tends to be
>> thrown off because if the computer doesn't know you spend a lot more
>> time, and often a lot more shops, on the problem.
>>
>> Still at the end of the day, tools are just tools.   They are getting
>> better all the time, but still just tools, and still limited to what
>> they can do.  A smart person running the tool is still critical for
>> many problems.
>>
>> Someone mentioned a cheap OBDII scanner that read some data like O2
>> sensors.  I forget what exactly OBDII does, but it isn't everything.
>> If a problem won't effect emissions, then the problem isn't in OBDII,
>> even though the engine may run badly.   All cars have information that
>> cannot be accessed by OBDII, and a good tech will need that
>> information.  A few good engineers could make the best ever OBDII
>> scanner in less than a year, but they won't be able to sell it for
>> more than $200 (if that much) because it is just OBDII and there is a
>> lot of competition.  Still the ease of making such tools means that
>> many companies do that.
>>
>> If you want to make something like the Genisys or a snap-on you will
>> need a lot more effort.   We need to handle every model made, one at a
>> time, and many manufactures will change details in the middle of the
>> year, not to mention all the different engines which could be on the
>> car.  Often engines that are mechanically identical will have
>> different computers on models.  This is why OTC and Snap-on charges a
>> lot more money, and few companies try and get into that market.
>>
>> I hope this is clear.  I'm not feeling the best today, so I'm less
>> sure than normal that I'm explaining things correctly.
>>
>> Quoting "Stephen Offiler" <soffiler at gmail.com>:
>>
>>> Charlie, you've basically got it right.  Modern aftermarket scanners
>>> such as the Genisys are trying to provide enhanced functionality to
>>> improve technician productivity, incorporating automated test
>>> routines, troubleshooting assistance, etc.  BUT BUT BUT at the end of
>>> the day they are still machines that read data and it is still largely
>>> up to the technician to make sense of that data relative to the
>>> problems they are trying to repair.  I'm not completely sure I
>>> understand Henry's first paragraph but it seems that he works for OTC,
>>> maker of the Genisys (and Pegisys) scan tools.   Perhaps the comments
>>> in his first paragraph indicate he's toeing his company line, because
>>> you can sell more scanners if you can convince people they do all the
>>> work for you.
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve O.
>>> (who is also professionally involved in the auto repair industry)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 4:56 PM, charliehill
>>> <charliehill at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Henry,  the computer can tell you that a sensor is out of range and
>> that a
>>>> control can not pull it back into range.  The computer can't tell you
>> if
>>>> it's a bad sensor, a bad control, a vacuum leak or a burned valve.
>> If it
>>>> can I'd love to hear you elaborate on how?
>>>>
>>>> I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I just want to understand.
>> Also, I'd
>>>> like to know more about your diagnostic equipment.
>>>>
>>>> Charlie
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Henry Miller" <hank at millerfarm.com>
>>>> To: <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 4:30 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As the maker of computer diagnostics (otc genisys), the computer
>> knows
>>>>> about 80%, and the parts replacer just replaces that part (cheaper
>> than
>>>>> fixing it).  There is no real need for brains, so leave them at the
>> door.
>>>>>
>>>>> That other 20%...  Well it is still a 4 cycle engine, and everthing
>> from a
>>>>> 1887 engine appies, plus a bunch of new things like EGR.  Some times
>>>>> understanding hot tube ignition or points helps solve problems even
>> on
>>>>> modern distributorless ignition systems.  The most important part is
>>>>> problem solving skills combined with an understanding of how things
>> work.
>>>>> (Expirence is helpful too)  Once you have that the computer can tell
>> you
>>>>> lots of interesting things, but if you don't know what it means
>> knowing
>>>>> the data won't help.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 2:51 PM, yestergears at intrstar.net
>>>>>> <yestergears at intrstar.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Talking with the dealer, he told me they are looking for computer
>>>>>>> operators moreso than mechanics these days.... Amazing... He said
>>>>>>> the computer told them what to replace repair now.  Then all he
>> needed
>>>>>>> was a parts changer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I say bullcrap.  That dealer is sadly mistaken, and he will be
>> bitten
>>>>>> by his own perception that all he needs is a "parts changer".  This
>>>>>> perception is rampant in the automotive world these days too,
>> although
>>>>>> most dealers and independent shops know the real score, and it's
>> the
>>>>>> consumer who thinks the computer does all the real work and some
>>>>>> minimum-wage drone hangs the parts.  The fact is, as systems become
>>>>>> more complex, so do the repairs, and even higher-skilled
>> technicians
>>>>>> are required.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve O.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> AT mailing list
>>>>>> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>>>
>>>>
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