[AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis

Stephen Offiler soffiler at gmail.com
Thu Feb 12 06:28:54 PST 2009


And I, for one, cannot change message subject lines.  I use Google's
Gmail, and when you hit "reply" it gives no subject field,
automatically forcing use of the existing subject line (a "feature"
which I never even noticed until just now!).  But I apologize for what
was viewed by some as a pissing contest.  To me it was just a lively
discussion and not TERRIBLY off-topic; at least we're still talking
about stuff with pistons and valves and gears and things.  And it did
start squarely with a tractor reference although it was a modern, not
antique.

SO


On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 7:13 PM, charliehill <charliehill at embarqmail.com> wrote:
> Just a run a way message Gene.  I for one forgot all about changing the
> heading.
>
> Sorry
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gene Dotson" <gdotsly at watchtv.net>
> To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis
>
>
>>    What I don't understand is that when I open a message titled "orange
>> tractor" I see a whole string about computer diagnostics. Did the orange
>> tractor get lost in the mud, or did posters forget to change the header so
>> we can automatically delete it?
>>
>>                Gene
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ernst Borchert" <eb3 at shelby.net>
>> To: "'Antique tractor email discussion group'"
>> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 11:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis
>>
>>
>>> You guys are unbelievable. How you can turn a picture of a big
>>> orange tractor into a pissing contest is beyond me. This is an antique
>>> tractor forum and therefore tractors with computers are not part of this
>>> forum. There are forums to discuss these.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
>>> [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of
>>> hank at millerfarm.com
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:34 AM
>>> To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com
>>> Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes I work for OTC, as such I have to toe the line.   I hope you are
>>> not surprised - if not you need a rude awakening as to how the real
>>> world works soon (until then please stay out of voting booths or
>>> anyplace else where you make important decisions).  That is also why I
>>> won't comment on (someone else's complaint) about email.  I don't know
>>> the answer and couldn't comment if I did.  If I see the right person
>>> to ask I will, but I only know my area, which is the program.
>>>
>>> As for is it 80% or 50% that the computer knows?  Well I don't really
>>> know.  I'm guessing.  However when looking at the guess don't forget
>>> that if the computer tells you the right part to replace you are
>>> looking at 1 hour of work, most of which is waiting for the
>>> replacement part to arrive, and not wrench time.   If the computer
>>> doesn't know you are looking at hours of diagnostics, and several
>>> visits.   The better mechanics will see more of these problems as well
>>> because the parts replacers tend to work at cheaper chain places, so
>>> the typical cheapskate will go there first.  (Most of the chains have
>>> a bunch or parts replacers and then on really good mechanic for the
>>> hard problem, if your problem gets to their good mechanic you should
>>> be fine, but getting it there...)  So the perspective tends to be
>>> thrown off because if the computer doesn't know you spend a lot more
>>> time, and often a lot more shops, on the problem.
>>>
>>> Still at the end of the day, tools are just tools.   They are getting
>>> better all the time, but still just tools, and still limited to what
>>> they can do.  A smart person running the tool is still critical for
>>> many problems.
>>>
>>> Someone mentioned a cheap OBDII scanner that read some data like O2
>>> sensors.  I forget what exactly OBDII does, but it isn't everything.
>>> If a problem won't effect emissions, then the problem isn't in OBDII,
>>> even though the engine may run badly.   All cars have information that
>>> cannot be accessed by OBDII, and a good tech will need that
>>> information.  A few good engineers could make the best ever OBDII
>>> scanner in less than a year, but they won't be able to sell it for
>>> more than $200 (if that much) because it is just OBDII and there is a
>>> lot of competition.  Still the ease of making such tools means that
>>> many companies do that.
>>>
>>> If you want to make something like the Genisys or a snap-on you will
>>> need a lot more effort.   We need to handle every model made, one at a
>>> time, and many manufactures will change details in the middle of the
>>> year, not to mention all the different engines which could be on the
>>> car.  Often engines that are mechanically identical will have
>>> different computers on models.  This is why OTC and Snap-on charges a
>>> lot more money, and few companies try and get into that market.
>>>
>>> I hope this is clear.  I'm not feeling the best today, so I'm less
>>> sure than normal that I'm explaining things correctly.
>>>
>>> Quoting "Stephen Offiler" <soffiler at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> Charlie, you've basically got it right.  Modern aftermarket scanners
>>>> such as the Genisys are trying to provide enhanced functionality to
>>>> improve technician productivity, incorporating automated test
>>>> routines, troubleshooting assistance, etc.  BUT BUT BUT at the end of
>>>> the day they are still machines that read data and it is still largely
>>>> up to the technician to make sense of that data relative to the
>>>> problems they are trying to repair.  I'm not completely sure I
>>>> understand Henry's first paragraph but it seems that he works for OTC,
>>>> maker of the Genisys (and Pegisys) scan tools.   Perhaps the comments
>>>> in his first paragraph indicate he's toeing his company line, because
>>>> you can sell more scanners if you can convince people they do all the
>>>> work for you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steve O.
>>>> (who is also professionally involved in the auto repair industry)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 4:56 PM, charliehill
>>>> <charliehill at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Henry,  the computer can tell you that a sensor is out of range and
>>> that a
>>>>> control can not pull it back into range.  The computer can't tell you
>>> if
>>>>> it's a bad sensor, a bad control, a vacuum leak or a burned valve.
>>> If it
>>>>> can I'd love to hear you elaborate on how?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I just want to understand.
>>> Also, I'd
>>>>> like to know more about your diagnostic equipment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Charlie
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Henry Miller" <hank at millerfarm.com>
>>>>> To: <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 4:30 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> As the maker of computer diagnostics (otc genisys), the computer
>>> knows
>>>>>> about 80%, and the parts replacer just replaces that part (cheaper
>>> than
>>>>>> fixing it).  There is no real need for brains, so leave them at the
>>> door.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That other 20%...  Well it is still a 4 cycle engine, and everthing
>>> from a
>>>>>> 1887 engine appies, plus a bunch of new things like EGR.  Some times
>>>>>> understanding hot tube ignition or points helps solve problems even
>>> on
>>>>>> modern distributorless ignition systems.  The most important part is
>>>>>> problem solving skills combined with an understanding of how things
>>> work.
>>>>>> (Expirence is helpful too)  Once you have that the computer can tell
>>> you
>>>>>> lots of interesting things, but if you don't know what it means
>>> knowing
>>>>>> the data won't help.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 2:51 PM, yestergears at intrstar.net
>>>>>>> <yestergears at intrstar.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Talking with the dealer, he told me they are looking for computer
>>>>>>>> operators moreso than mechanics these days.... Amazing... He said
>>>>>>>> the computer told them what to replace repair now.  Then all he
>>> needed
>>>>>>>> was a parts changer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I say bullcrap.  That dealer is sadly mistaken, and he will be
>>> bitten
>>>>>>> by his own perception that all he needs is a "parts changer".  This
>>>>>>> perception is rampant in the automotive world these days too,
>>> although
>>>>>>> most dealers and independent shops know the real score, and it's
>>> the
>>>>>>> consumer who thinks the computer does all the real work and some
>>>>>>> minimum-wage drone hangs the parts.  The fact is, as systems become
>>>>>>> more complex, so do the repairs, and even higher-skilled
>>> technicians
>>>>>>> are required.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve O.
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> AT mailing list
>>>>>>> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------
>>>>>
>>>>>
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