[AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis

Gene Dotson gdotsly at watchtv.net
Wed Feb 11 09:06:20 PST 2009


    What I don't understand is that when I open a message titled "orange 
tractor" I see a whole string about computer diagnostics. Did the orange 
tractor get lost in the mud, or did posters forget to change the header so 
we can automatically delete it?

                Gene



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ernst Borchert" <eb3 at shelby.net>
To: "'Antique tractor email discussion group'" 
<at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis


> You guys are unbelievable. How you can turn a picture of a big
> orange tractor into a pissing contest is beyond me. This is an antique
> tractor forum and therefore tractors with computers are not part of this
> forum. There are forums to discuss these.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of
> hank at millerfarm.com
> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:34 AM
> To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com
> Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis
>
>
> Yes I work for OTC, as such I have to toe the line.   I hope you are
> not surprised - if not you need a rude awakening as to how the real
> world works soon (until then please stay out of voting booths or
> anyplace else where you make important decisions).  That is also why I
> won't comment on (someone else's complaint) about email.  I don't know
> the answer and couldn't comment if I did.  If I see the right person
> to ask I will, but I only know my area, which is the program.
>
> As for is it 80% or 50% that the computer knows?  Well I don't really
> know.  I'm guessing.  However when looking at the guess don't forget
> that if the computer tells you the right part to replace you are
> looking at 1 hour of work, most of which is waiting for the
> replacement part to arrive, and not wrench time.   If the computer
> doesn't know you are looking at hours of diagnostics, and several
> visits.   The better mechanics will see more of these problems as well
> because the parts replacers tend to work at cheaper chain places, so
> the typical cheapskate will go there first.  (Most of the chains have
> a bunch or parts replacers and then on really good mechanic for the
> hard problem, if your problem gets to their good mechanic you should
> be fine, but getting it there...)  So the perspective tends to be
> thrown off because if the computer doesn't know you spend a lot more
> time, and often a lot more shops, on the problem.
>
> Still at the end of the day, tools are just tools.   They are getting
> better all the time, but still just tools, and still limited to what
> they can do.  A smart person running the tool is still critical for
> many problems.
>
> Someone mentioned a cheap OBDII scanner that read some data like O2
> sensors.  I forget what exactly OBDII does, but it isn't everything.
> If a problem won't effect emissions, then the problem isn't in OBDII,
> even though the engine may run badly.   All cars have information that
> cannot be accessed by OBDII, and a good tech will need that
> information.  A few good engineers could make the best ever OBDII
> scanner in less than a year, but they won't be able to sell it for
> more than $200 (if that much) because it is just OBDII and there is a
> lot of competition.  Still the ease of making such tools means that
> many companies do that.
>
> If you want to make something like the Genisys or a snap-on you will
> need a lot more effort.   We need to handle every model made, one at a
> time, and many manufactures will change details in the middle of the
> year, not to mention all the different engines which could be on the
> car.  Often engines that are mechanically identical will have
> different computers on models.  This is why OTC and Snap-on charges a
> lot more money, and few companies try and get into that market.
>
> I hope this is clear.  I'm not feeling the best today, so I'm less
> sure than normal that I'm explaining things correctly.
>
> Quoting "Stephen Offiler" <soffiler at gmail.com>:
>
>> Charlie, you've basically got it right.  Modern aftermarket scanners
>> such as the Genisys are trying to provide enhanced functionality to
>> improve technician productivity, incorporating automated test
>> routines, troubleshooting assistance, etc.  BUT BUT BUT at the end of
>> the day they are still machines that read data and it is still largely
>> up to the technician to make sense of that data relative to the
>> problems they are trying to repair.  I'm not completely sure I
>> understand Henry's first paragraph but it seems that he works for OTC,
>> maker of the Genisys (and Pegisys) scan tools.   Perhaps the comments
>> in his first paragraph indicate he's toeing his company line, because
>> you can sell more scanners if you can convince people they do all the
>> work for you.
>>
>>
>> Steve O.
>> (who is also professionally involved in the auto repair industry)
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 4:56 PM, charliehill
>> <charliehill at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>>> Henry,  the computer can tell you that a sensor is out of range and
> that a
>>> control can not pull it back into range.  The computer can't tell you
> if
>>> it's a bad sensor, a bad control, a vacuum leak or a burned valve.
> If it
>>> can I'd love to hear you elaborate on how?
>>>
>>> I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I just want to understand.
> Also, I'd
>>> like to know more about your diagnostic equipment.
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Henry Miller" <hank at millerfarm.com>
>>> To: <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 4:30 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis
>>>
>>>
>>>> As the maker of computer diagnostics (otc genisys), the computer
> knows
>>>> about 80%, and the parts replacer just replaces that part (cheaper
> than
>>>> fixing it).  There is no real need for brains, so leave them at the
> door.
>>>>
>>>> That other 20%...  Well it is still a 4 cycle engine, and everthing
> from a
>>>> 1887 engine appies, plus a bunch of new things like EGR.  Some times
>>>> understanding hot tube ignition or points helps solve problems even
> on
>>>> modern distributorless ignition systems.  The most important part is
>>>> problem solving skills combined with an understanding of how things
> work.
>>>> (Expirence is helpful too)  Once you have that the computer can tell
> you
>>>> lots of interesting things, but if you don't know what it means
> knowing
>>>> the data won't help.
>>>>
>>>> Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 2:51 PM, yestergears at intrstar.net
>>>>> <yestergears at intrstar.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Talking with the dealer, he told me they are looking for computer
>>>>>> operators moreso than mechanics these days.... Amazing... He said
>>>>>> the computer told them what to replace repair now.  Then all he
> needed
>>>>>> was a parts changer.
>>>>>
>>>>> I say bullcrap.  That dealer is sadly mistaken, and he will be
> bitten
>>>>> by his own perception that all he needs is a "parts changer".  This
>>>>> perception is rampant in the automotive world these days too,
> although
>>>>> most dealers and independent shops know the real score, and it's
> the
>>>>> consumer who thinks the computer does all the real work and some
>>>>> minimum-wage drone hangs the parts.  The fact is, as systems become
>>>>> more complex, so do the repairs, and even higher-skilled
> technicians
>>>>> are required.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve O.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> AT mailing list
>>>>> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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