[AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis
Ernst Borchert
eb3 at shelby.net
Wed Feb 11 08:18:55 PST 2009
You guys are unbelievable. How you can turn a picture of a big
orange tractor into a pissing contest is beyond me. This is an antique
tractor forum and therefore tractors with computers are not part of this
forum. There are forums to discuss these.
-----Original Message-----
From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
[mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of
hank at millerfarm.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:34 AM
To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com
Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis
Yes I work for OTC, as such I have to toe the line. I hope you are
not surprised - if not you need a rude awakening as to how the real
world works soon (until then please stay out of voting booths or
anyplace else where you make important decisions). That is also why I
won't comment on (someone else's complaint) about email. I don't know
the answer and couldn't comment if I did. If I see the right person
to ask I will, but I only know my area, which is the program.
As for is it 80% or 50% that the computer knows? Well I don't really
know. I'm guessing. However when looking at the guess don't forget
that if the computer tells you the right part to replace you are
looking at 1 hour of work, most of which is waiting for the
replacement part to arrive, and not wrench time. If the computer
doesn't know you are looking at hours of diagnostics, and several
visits. The better mechanics will see more of these problems as well
because the parts replacers tend to work at cheaper chain places, so
the typical cheapskate will go there first. (Most of the chains have
a bunch or parts replacers and then on really good mechanic for the
hard problem, if your problem gets to their good mechanic you should
be fine, but getting it there...) So the perspective tends to be
thrown off because if the computer doesn't know you spend a lot more
time, and often a lot more shops, on the problem.
Still at the end of the day, tools are just tools. They are getting
better all the time, but still just tools, and still limited to what
they can do. A smart person running the tool is still critical for
many problems.
Someone mentioned a cheap OBDII scanner that read some data like O2
sensors. I forget what exactly OBDII does, but it isn't everything.
If a problem won't effect emissions, then the problem isn't in OBDII,
even though the engine may run badly. All cars have information that
cannot be accessed by OBDII, and a good tech will need that
information. A few good engineers could make the best ever OBDII
scanner in less than a year, but they won't be able to sell it for
more than $200 (if that much) because it is just OBDII and there is a
lot of competition. Still the ease of making such tools means that
many companies do that.
If you want to make something like the Genisys or a snap-on you will
need a lot more effort. We need to handle every model made, one at a
time, and many manufactures will change details in the middle of the
year, not to mention all the different engines which could be on the
car. Often engines that are mechanically identical will have
different computers on models. This is why OTC and Snap-on charges a
lot more money, and few companies try and get into that market.
I hope this is clear. I'm not feeling the best today, so I'm less
sure than normal that I'm explaining things correctly.
Quoting "Stephen Offiler" <soffiler at gmail.com>:
> Charlie, you've basically got it right. Modern aftermarket scanners
> such as the Genisys are trying to provide enhanced functionality to
> improve technician productivity, incorporating automated test
> routines, troubleshooting assistance, etc. BUT BUT BUT at the end of
> the day they are still machines that read data and it is still largely
> up to the technician to make sense of that data relative to the
> problems they are trying to repair. I'm not completely sure I
> understand Henry's first paragraph but it seems that he works for OTC,
> maker of the Genisys (and Pegisys) scan tools. Perhaps the comments
> in his first paragraph indicate he's toeing his company line, because
> you can sell more scanners if you can convince people they do all the
> work for you.
>
>
> Steve O.
> (who is also professionally involved in the auto repair industry)
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 4:56 PM, charliehill
> <charliehill at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>> Henry, the computer can tell you that a sensor is out of range and
that a
>> control can not pull it back into range. The computer can't tell you
if
>> it's a bad sensor, a bad control, a vacuum leak or a burned valve.
If it
>> can I'd love to hear you elaborate on how?
>>
>> I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just want to understand.
Also, I'd
>> like to know more about your diagnostic equipment.
>>
>> Charlie
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Henry Miller" <hank at millerfarm.com>
>> To: <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 4:30 PM
>> Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis
>>
>>
>>> As the maker of computer diagnostics (otc genisys), the computer
knows
>>> about 80%, and the parts replacer just replaces that part (cheaper
than
>>> fixing it). There is no real need for brains, so leave them at the
door.
>>>
>>> That other 20%... Well it is still a 4 cycle engine, and everthing
from a
>>> 1887 engine appies, plus a bunch of new things like EGR. Some times
>>> understanding hot tube ignition or points helps solve problems even
on
>>> modern distributorless ignition systems. The most important part is
>>> problem solving skills combined with an understanding of how things
work.
>>> (Expirence is helpful too) Once you have that the computer can tell
you
>>> lots of interesting things, but if you don't know what it means
knowing
>>> the data won't help.
>>>
>>> Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 2:51 PM, yestergears at intrstar.net
>>>> <yestergears at intrstar.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Talking with the dealer, he told me they are looking for computer
>>>>> operators moreso than mechanics these days.... Amazing... He said
>>>>> the computer told them what to replace repair now. Then all he
needed
>>>>> was a parts changer.
>>>>
>>>> I say bullcrap. That dealer is sadly mistaken, and he will be
bitten
>>>> by his own perception that all he needs is a "parts changer". This
>>>> perception is rampant in the automotive world these days too,
although
>>>> most dealers and independent shops know the real score, and it's
the
>>>> consumer who thinks the computer does all the real work and some
>>>> minimum-wage drone hangs the parts. The fact is, as systems become
>>>> more complex, so do the repairs, and even higher-skilled
technicians
>>>> are required.
>>>>
>>>> Steve O.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> AT mailing list
>>>> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9. Please excuse my brevity.
>>
>>
>>
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