Alt fuels was Re: [AT] Gasoline $

Fri Aug 12 04:39:46 PDT 2005

Tom the links I just posted (previous message) will tell you how to do it.

Charlie
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom Yasnowski" <tomyasnowski at hotmail.com>
To: <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 7:10 AM
Subject: Re: Alt fuels was Re: [AT] Gasoline $

> When my old 1992 Saturn with 170K miles on it finally bites the dust, (It 
> still gets 35 MPG!) I am
> going to get a diesel pickup.  Considering running straight waste 
> vegetable oil thru it.  Till then
> I am researching on way to get the oil extra clean; more than just using 
> filtration. I got a couple sources for the oil, and got some ideas on how 
> to get it really clean.
> Tom
>
>>From: John Wilkens <jwilkens at eoni.com>
>>Reply-To: Antique tractor email discussion group 
>><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>To: Antique tractor email discussion group <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>Subject: Re: Alt fuels was Re: [AT] Gasoline $
>>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:03:17 -0700
>>
>>The neighbor across the road is making his own biodiesel by processing 
>>waste restaurant cooking oil from town to power his old Mercedes (?) car 
>>and pickup.  Supposedly they run fine.  I've seen his tanks but I don't 
>>know any of the process details.  But.....if everyone in the valley starts 
>>doing this they will run out of waste oil in a hurry!   John
>>
>>
>>
>>At 08:13 AM 08/11/2005, you wrote:
>>>I agree with Cecil in part; I do think Biodiesel will be the way out once 
>>>they figure out
>>>how to keep it from clouding at lower temps.  The cost of Biodiesel today 
>>>is near what regular diesel is, and the technology is improving all the 
>>>time. Pitt univerity is patenting a way to make it that cut the cost 
>>>considerably and reduces the hazardous waste:
>>>
>>>http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/business/s_342262.html
>>>
>>>If this fuel takes off, look for canola to be the crop of choice as it 
>>>yields much more oil that soybeans: "It contains about 40% oil and 23% 
>>>protein compared to 20 and 40%, respectively, for soybean".
>>>
>>>All in all, I have faith in the enterprising spirit to come up with a 
>>>solution.
>>>
>>>Tom
>>>
>>>>From: "Steve W." <falcon at telenet.net>
>>>>Reply-To: Antique tractor email discussion group 
>>>><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>>>To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" 
>>>><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>>>Subject: Re: Alt fuels was Re: [AT] Gasoline $
>>>>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:43:37 -0400
>>>>
>>>>Believe what you want, I know folks who have run alcohol in there
>>>>engines and got half the mileage in the vehicle. I have run it in race
>>>>engines and know how much power I lost in them over gasoline as well.
>>>>  In a vehicle you need to dump 40% more alcohol through the injectors 
>>>> to
>>>>achieve a mix that will burn well enough to power a vehicle. Then take
>>>>into account that alcohol in an engine only produces 64% of the HP that
>>>>gasoline does and you get to see the reality.
>>>>
>>>>Production costs for alcohol DO get government help right now as do any
>>>>other "alternative fuels" You are also close to a production point and
>>>>the lack of transportation costs also keeps the price artificially low.
>>>>As does a lack of demand for alcohol as a fuel. The last 55 gallon drum
>>>>I bought cost me 213.97 + shipping.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>http://www.lubedev.com/smartgas/alcohol.htm
>>>>http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=43492
>>>>http://www.pennsylvaniagasprices.com/Forum_MSG.aspx?master=1&category=1056&topic=130249&page_no=1
>>>>http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July05/ethanol.toocostly.ssl.html
>>>>
>>>>Steve W.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Jim and Lyn Evans" <jevans at evanstoys.com>
>>>>To: "'Antique tractor email discussion group'"
>>>><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>>>Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 7:13 AM
>>>>Subject: RE: Alt fuels was Re: [AT] Gasoline $
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > I think real mileage loss is around 25%.  Here are production E85 
>>>> > fuel
>>>> > economy ratings:
>>>> > http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/byfuel/FFV2000.shtml
>>>> >
>>>> > I don't buy the argument that it takes more energy to produce alcohol
>>>>than
>>>> > it returns.  That is propaganda from the oil companies.  The only way
>>>>you
>>>> > come up with that much energy is if you include the solar energy that
>>>>it
>>>> > took to grow the corn.
>>>> >
>>>> > You can make the same argument with any energy source - gasoline,
>>>>diesel,
>>>> > electricity, hydrogen, etc.  In all cases, it takes "more energy" to
>>>>produce
>>>> > it than it returns.  There are always inefficiencies in the
>>>>production,
>>>> > making the return less than 100%.  If there wasn't, then it would be 
>>>> > a
>>>>
>>>> > perpetual motion machine.  The secret is finding a cheap, renewable
>>>>fuel
>>>> > source, and transforming it into a product that can be transported 
>>>> > and
>>>> > easily used by consumers.  If you can use natural gas, coal, or wood
>>>>(which
>>>> > isn't handy to use directly in a car) and a bushel of corn and create
>>>>a
>>>> > product that can be easily handled and burned in a car, then you have
>>>> > something.
>>>> >
>>>> > The alcohol plants here are making it for about $1.29/gallon.  That
>>>>includes
>>>> > the cost of the corn (which is fairly high here because of demand),
>>>>and the
>>>> > price of the natural gas (expensive) they use to make the product.
>>>>There
>>>> > are no government subsidies in that cost.  If it took so much energy
>>>>to make
>>>> > it, wouldn't it cost more?
>>>> >
>>>> > Jim
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>> > From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
>>>> > [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of Steve W.
>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 10:30 PM
>>>> > To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>> > Subject: Re: Alt fuels was Re: [AT] Gasoline $
>>>> >
>>>> > Real simple. Those third world countries have VERY CHEAP labor. Most
>>>>of
>>>> > the fuel they produce is made in small quantities by locals and then
>>>> > sold locally. In order to produce enough to fuel the current American
>>>> > "fleet" you would need to produce more alcohol than we have the
>>>> > materials for production. Also I don't know how you figure that
>>>>ethanol
>>>> > is so cheap. It isn't. Also it is a REAL mileage killer when run
>>>> > straight in an engine. You lose half your mileage running it. If you
>>>>add
>>>> > in ALL the costs of production for both Alcohol and for Bio-diesel 
>>>> > you
>>>> > will also find out that it takes MORE energy to produce it than it
>>>> > returns, they are both net energy losers.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
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>>
>>                    In the wide-open spaces of NE Oregon
>>
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