Alt fuels was Re: [AT] Gasoline $

Wed Aug 10 13:38:17 PDT 2005

I will add a few cents to this in between doing money making work.... Here 
in California a typical Solar energy system does cost about $20K. It will 
put out a peak of about 2.5-3Kw. The typical payback is 7-10 years if 
interest is not counted. With a 20% increase in efficiency of the panels or 
a similar drop in manufacturing costs (inevitable if volumes increase as 
they appear to be doing) that payback time will drop to about 5 years. My 
folks just installed two of these systems at the ranch (I did all of the 
prep work including bracing the barn....) Even without incentives the 
payback time is still usually no more than 15-17 years.
    Now here is the kicker... If half of the homes in California had Solar 
systems on their roofs, the daytime peak transmission needs for the whole 
state would be met locally and no new intertie would have to be built and 
the new natural gas pipelines would not have to be built (from Canada to 
here!) In addition, with solar generation at current technology levels 
around 75-80% of daytime electrical energy needs could be met in this 
country without new interties, saving tens of billions in construction cost 
and cutting gas and oil imports by a significant margin. Daytime use is what 
is driving the use of the older less efficient oil, natural gas and other 
fossil fuel generating plants. The reduction possible in these fuels, would 
likely be enough to pull the world back from the low margin we are now at 
and reduce the price of oil significantly - also helping our balance of 
payments.
    If the panels were manufactured here instead of overseas, manufacturing 
jobs could be generated and we could benefit from the efficiencies on that 
side too. Right now because we have no policy encouraging solar energy, 
mostly foreign companies are investing in the technologies and making the 
profits....
    In short, solar and wind energy (yes it is important but a much smaller 
source) could make a huge difference in our energy consumption and the price 
of that imported energy. The other part of the equation though is 
conservation and hence reduced use of energy for both transportation and 
stationary usages. Miserable fuel economy of our transportation system 
accounts for massive amounts of use. Also, all of the decreases in energy 
use possible from better building construction and fewer wasted miles add up 
in a hurry. I'd better close now as I have essential work to do.....
        Grant Brians
        Hollister, California

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve W." <falcon at telenet.net>
To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: Alt fuels was Re: [AT] Gasoline $


>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "ken knierim" <wild1 at cpe-66-1-196-61.az.sprintbbd.net>
> To: "Antique tractor email discussion group"
> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 1:10 PM
> Subject: OT: Alt fuels was Re: [AT] Gasoline $
>
>
>> George,
>>     Not everywhere is solar such a low-density thing. Here in AZ the
>> number shot around is around 1KW per square meter... if you've been
> here
>> in the summer you know there's a lot of power in it. :) The technical
>> issues with pushing it into mainstream are considerable though. My
> guess
>> is that with the energy costs we'll see a lot more exploration into
>> using it. I know I'm working on a couple of alternative fuels/energy
>> projects.
>>
>> 1. Propane conversions for new vehicles. I'm not in the middle of this
>> one but I'm doing some support for a couple of guys working out the
>> software and hardware. The new vehicles have some pretty stringent
>> requirements and can be very finicky about what you feed them for
>> fuels... and again, sometimes they aren't. GM and Ford have been
>> building a lot of vehicles that will run on ethanol/gasoline blends
> far
>> in excess of the 85% gasoline. With the modern fuel controls, it's
> going
>> to be a lot better than some of the previous experiences (carburetor
>> conversions) and they have higher compression ratios that will take
>> better advantage of the amount of energy in the ethanol. Yes, there is
>> less energy available than gasoline, but if the engine isn't designed
>> for the fuel you're burning, it's going to be inefficient.
>
> True BUT do you realize that propane ismade from oil? It is actually a
> byproduct of gasoline production. It is also MUCH more expensive to use
> (current gasoline price here 2.56 gal. current propane price 3.08 and
> that is with a lot of discounts and I was told it is going up next week
> again)
>
>>
>> 2. A lot of energy goes into domestic usage (heating and cooling) and
>> that CAN be directly affected by alternative sources a lot easier than
>> transportation. Simple things like using a fan and bumping the A/C
>> setting up a few degrees saves a LOT. Couple that to addition of
>> insulation, newer windows, servicing HVAC systems and filters, and a
> LOT
>> of energy can be saved. When I moved into my house (built in 1979,
> 2300
>> square feet) the previous owner was paying over $600 per month for
>> cooling in the summertime. Last month's bill for me, 10 years after I
>> moved in and started improving things, was under $200, and energy
> costs
>> have not gone down in the last 10 years...
>
> The problem there is that you need to spend BIG money to do all of the
> improvements to save the energy. When you add it all up it costs much
> more than just paying the money for the oil. Not saying it is bad to do
> but don't think it isn't a wash in the long run.
>
>>
>> 3. Another idea that I'm going to attempt is a solar powered air
>> conditioner. There's an experimental system being tested in several
>> locations that uses low pressure water as a refrigerant. They use
> solar
>> panels to capture the heat, boil the water and use a venturi to
> generate
>> a pumping action that generates chilled water out the other side. My
>> guess is that with a ground loop (something I've been reading about on
>> this group with close and careful attention) and some controls could
> be
>> added to the system.
>>    I plan on building a carport roof this winter and making it strong
>> enough to support the solar collectors on top of it. The idea is to
>> generate cooling that I will be using on my shop (where I work on my
>> tractors!). With a solar system it should reduce the cooling
>> requirements on the main shop. I do not expect it to eliminate them by
>> any stretch but knocking the edge off it is a good start. While it's
> not
>> the do-all and end all, reducing our reliance on foreign energy is
> going
>> to be more and more critical. I feel China is waking up and is going
> to
>> become ravenously energy-hungry and I just don't see fuel costs ever
>> coming down.
>>     I've already done a few things to improve my transportation fuel
>> costs. First, I don't drive my Blazer as much; only when hauling stuff
>> or for recreation. I'm running a fuel injected, manual transmission
>> Camaro which gets about twice the fuel mileage. Trip planning helps
> but
>> does not eliminate driving; I commonly have 2 to 8 stops on a daily
> trip
>> (picking up and dropping off parts, visiting customers and vendors,
> all
>> the trappings of a small business). I also do a lot of shopping
> online.
>>
>>
>> I'd like to hear of more ideas; this group is great for them.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> Gilbert, Arizona
>>
>>
> In the long run the only real solution to 99 percent of the problem is
> Nuclear power. Use it instead of oil and oil derived products for
> electrical generation and you will see large gains.
> Solar sounds good BUT the cost of making the cells, maintenance and the
> back-up storage systems for the times when power spikes or low sun days
> wipes out any perceived advantage for large scale use. The last time I
> checked it would run almost 20K for a system that would deliver
> equivalent power to my home/shop and that was just the array, no storage
> or backup systems.
>
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