[AT] history of PTO's on tractors .... when LIVE PTO

Sun May 30 14:06:07 PDT 2021

Chuck,

I think you have the correct answer.  What isn’t clear to me is whether this came out of Oliver’s engineering or Cockshuts.  There was a very close business relationship between the two companies. As I recall I pursued this in the past without a clear resolution. During the 18 years I was on the farm Dad never had a Live PTO tractor.  My much older brother had a JD 520 with live PTO so I got to see the benefits but didn’t get to enjoy them very much.  My Dad had a thing about not spending much money on machinery so we  were usually about one or two generations of tractors behind the current market.  An example, A JD 70 w/o Live PTO, No Power Steering and No Roll-o-Matic front end. About as bare a tractor as one could buy. But when real work needed to be done it did the job. 4 bottom tag plow on any of our 410 acres.  There are two things us farm boys never forget and that is the look and smell of freshly cut alfalfa or freshly plowed land. I distinctly remember how hard it was at first to make a 90 degree turn with the #5 mower and not leave single stalk of alfalfa standing at that corner.  Had to satisfy my Dad’s perfectionist requirement.  “Do it right or don’t do it at all”.   He was very, very difficult to satisfy.   But… one learns to live with very little positive reinforcement.  That was just the way it was. End of discussion. To this day I wonder what would have happened if I had just given up and left the farm much earlier than I finally did?  Too much time on a Garden tractor to let my mind wonder.   I kind of get the same sense of accomplishment mowing the lawn  for several hours now as I got out in the field on the farm in the 40’s and 50’s. Lots of time to let the mind wonder and solve all the world’s problems.  Unfortunately, on some of the really difficult world problems I resort to tactical nuclear weapons as a solution. 😊 

Dean VP

Snohomish, WA 98290

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

..Winston Churchill...

From: AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> On Behalf Of Chuck Bealke
Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2021 3:53 PM
To: Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Subject: Re: [AT] history of PTO's on tractors .... when LIVE PTO

Y’all,

Seems like we had the "first live PTO tractor" discussion here some years ago, and the winner was the Cockshutt 30. Can’t find any real argument for this now and see this Canadian PTO pioneer was made in 1946. Also read that Oliver had it in 1947 on the 88, but don’t know if this was the only Oliver with live PTO that year. Like hydraulic power, live PTO can spoil you in a hurry. Vividly remember the day I moved our 7-ft. armstrong lift JD No. 8 sicklebar mower from my MH446 to the JD530 with live PTO and equipped it with a remote hyd. cylinder.  This was a happy time, as I was far less tempted to loose my religion over gophers mounds when mowing alfalfa. Use to love the way a rolling fresh cut hay field looked. Like moldboard plowing, you could see your satisfying work on display.

Chuck Bealke

Dallas, TX

On May 29, 2021, at 11:28 AM, Spencer Yost <spencer at rdfarms.com <mailto:spencer at rdfarms.com> > wrote:

I always wanted a Roto Baler. I don’t have a single sane, logical reason other than I just love to watch them in action. Since I have small acreage I thought it would be interesting to try to use one.  Unfortunately they were never popular around here so I would have to haul one in from afar and they are difficult to transport. So I’ve never had the opportunity to buy one that was in good enough shape to be worth the effort to transport.

Plus it would take up a lot of my nonexistent shed space.  (-:  I could not keep it out of the rain without erecting a shed.   The lumber would cost more than the rotobaler (-:

Spencer

Sent from my iPhone

On May 29, 2021, at 10:57 AM, Mark Johnson <markjohnson100 at centurylink.net <mailto:markjohnson100 at centurylink.net> > wrote:

Herb & all: 

I remember that we had two different JD A's and a 620 when I was growing up...the 'old' A definitely did not have live PTO. The 'new' A (pressed steel frame instead of cast iron) *might* have had live PTO; I just don't recall. The 620 and everything later that we had, all definitely had live PTO. We used the 620 and 730s to power our AC roto baler.  The IH 300 would have had enough power, but lacked the live PTO, so it got relegated to rake duty. My dad said this of the original AC roto baler design: "I never baled with it without something breaking during the day. But I also never failed to finish baling what we had raked and ready." Admittedly, ours was old, and had been extensively rebuilt. Even at that, the latch plates that held the upper and lower belt gangs in the 'roll a bale" position had some wear, and would occasionally release without being tripped - either while we were running twine, or even before that. I always thought of it as the baler "throwing up" on us.

If the bale hadn't been partially tied, we just carried the hay back around to the pickup deck and ran it through again :-). 

For myself, I always thought of the AC Roto-Baler as being an engineer's dream and a mechanic's nightmare. Lots of manual operation (stopping to feed twine manually, then tripping the release to eject the bale every time. I heard some tales that there was a later version, never produced or built only in small quantities, that had a way to 'hold' hay while the twine feed was running, so the operator didn't have to stop for each bale. I can only imagine the mechanical complexity of such a beast. Can anybody confirm or deny?

Mark J

On 5/29/2021 9:34 AM, Cecil Bearden wrote:

I think the earliest live PTO was on the WD Allis Chalmers.  Built to power the AC roto baler.  The hand clutch stopped forward travel and left he PTO running.   I really liked running my old WD, just hated the seat.  I still have kinks in my back from it...
Cecil

On 5/28/2021 9:05 PM, HERBERT METZ wrote:

Dean, I certainly agree and hope that purists pick up on this by sharing their knowledge of history of these two PTO systems.  Herb(GA) 

On 05/28/2021 4:36 PM Dean VP  <mailto:deanvp at att.net> <deanvp at att.net> wrote: 

Herb,

In addition to your question when did LIVE PTO arrive and what tractor Manufacturer provided it.  I do believe there is a distinction needed to be made between INDEPENDENT LIVE PTO and LIVE PTO for the purists

Dean VP

From: AT  <mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> On Behalf Of HERBERT METZ
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2021 4:19 AM
To: Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group  <mailto:at at lists.antique-tractor.com> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Subject: [AT] history of PTO's on tractors

When did PTO's  first appear on tractors? I assume sickle bar mowers was one of the first implements that PTO's appeared on? 

I use an Allis Chalmers  PTO powered four foot tiller behind my AC720 large lawn tractor; sure is a nice way to till our large vegetable garden. 

Herb(GA)

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