[AT] While we are OT on Refrigerators.

Mon Jun 8 04:36:35 PDT 2020

Sorry guys,  I have had to attend to some other higher priority issues lately.  Will turn the refrigerator back on today and check the temperatures in each compartment, freezer and refrigerator.  Will see how well I am calibrated.  

Dean VP

Snohomish, WA 98290

From: AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> On Behalf Of Mike M
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 8:47 PM
To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com
Subject: Re: [AT] While we are OT on Refrigerators.

OK, so I mentioned Deans problem to my buddy tonight, and right off the bat he disregarded the Freon issue and went straight to a damper system between the freezer and the refrigerator , and that it may not be functioning properly, at least that's where he'd start. Note he's industrial not residential, but he's a very smart technician. 

Mike M

On 6/6/2020 6:56 PM, bradloomis at charter.net <mailto:bradloomis at charter.net>  wrote:

I like your friend. There are way too many unethical people in some of the trades. 99% of the population will have to take the mechanic’s word as to the issue because they have no idea what they are talking about. Probably asked about ohm reading on the ‘defective’ compressor or relay. Easy peasy to do and know. Too many parts changers and not enough diagnosticians. As an aside on refrigeration systems and leaks, yes they are supposed to be sealed. The last place I worked had 3 good sized ammonia systems and you would be hard pressed to not walk thru an area and not get a little whiff now and then. It just goes with hundreds of bolted in valves and solenoids, expansion and contraction, and earthquakes. 500 tanks most with two solenoids and strainers. Lots of leaks. Fortunately 99% outside, even the machine rooms. Only one reportable, that that was after I left. Human error. A big oops. Not supposed to leak but…. 

From: AT  <mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> On Behalf Of Mike M
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2020 3:34 PM
To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com <mailto:at at lists.antique-tractor.com> 
Subject: Re: [AT] While we are OT on Refrigerators.

OK, so now the picture becomes clearer. We're going to a bonfire tonight with friends, one of whom is a certified unlimited tonnage refrigerant journeyman. He works on systems and chillers the size of which blow my mind, all industrial. I'll ask him about Deans problem. His mother had her refrigerator go out and rather than bother him she called a service company. They said it was a bad compressor and charged her around $700. When he got home she told him about the problem, and what they did. He immediately called the service tech and asked him about the problem. The service tech told him,"sir this is very complicated"  This lit the fuse on my buddy who asked him  if he ohm's out certain parts and other very specific technical questions. The serviceman soon realized he chewed on the wrong dog, and referred him to the owner of the company. After checking her system her determined that it was a relay or some inexpensive  part. Don't quote me on the parts I'm not an expert. The owner dropped the charge from $700 to $150 apologized profusely. 

Mike M

On 6/6/2020 6:04 PM, bradloomis at charter.net <mailto:bradloomis at charter.net>  wrote:

Oh they can and do leak but they aren’t supposed to leak, AT ALL. Ever. Sealed systems. Now, by law, leaks have to be repaired. You can no longer just “add some” refrigerant because you can do that in perpetuity. Of course there are exceptions to all laws. Hell even autos aren’t supposed to ‘leak’. I doubt most cars newer than what? 10? 20? Years old “leak” a little oil. Unless there is something wrong, just like that A/C unit. Something isn’t right. Any A/C guy that doesn’t find and fix the leak is negligent, or just a bad mechanic. If your son inlaw is just family with refrigerant adding it to your system, no harm no foul. I’ve worked on 50 year old units that are still intact and working without ever having the systems opened. Like cars, tractors, and refrigerators, some are better than others. 

From: AT  <mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> On Behalf Of Mike M
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2020 2:18 PM
To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com <mailto:at at lists.antique-tractor.com> 
Subject: Re: [AT] While we are OT on Refrigerators.

I'm still having a hard time with your statement that a system cannot leak over time. A small leak will lower the refrigerant level over time, no different than a car with a small oil leak will lead to a lower oil level "over time". I don't want to get into the different refrigerants, and whether they are good or bad, I am more interested in dealing with Deans problem, and for you to say that it couldn't be low refrigerant is bogus, you clearly stated that that there is no such thing as a small leak over time, " If it leaks it has a leak. No over time, no evaporating" please clarify your statement.

Mike M

On 6/6/2020 4:09 PM, bloomis at charter.net <mailto:bloomis at charter.net>  wrote:

Out a hole, bad joint, corrosion. If he didn’t fix the leak then he’ll be adding more. I didn’t say it couldn’t be a small leak, but still a leak. If it is a split system it probably holds 4-6 lbs. of refrigerant. A domestic refrigerator holds less than a pound. I had a little 3’ pie case that had a leak that I never found. Every 3 months it would quit. The charge was 6oz of R-12. That is a tiny leak. So if pie cases, or any other refrigerant system had small leaks by design, refrigeration mechanics would never go home. It was at the Piedras Blancas Motel, which closed shortly thereafter. Forever. https://visitsansimeonca.com/what-to-do/piedras-blancas-motel/ 

The reason the ozone layer and refrigerants came under scrutiny was primarily due to the automobile. Older cars were notorious to leak, all averaging 2.5lbs of R-12. Multiply that by the millions and that is a lot of R-12 into the atmosphere. I am not going to argue the science, just the outcome. That effected ALL refrigeration, A/C. When I first started in the trade when one needed to empty a system for repair you just blew it out into the atmosphere. Now recovery machines and a slew of refrigerants. I got out of commercial refrigeration as the plethora of refrigerants was overwhelming. You never knew what the last guy put in a system. Used to be three, R=12 for most medium temp/ some low temp, R-22 for A/C, and R-502 for low temp. Simple and easy. I couldn’t work on a new A/C system as I’ve never worked with 410a. Totally different animal. Now it’s already being phased out. Long live ammonia! Easy, and enviro friendly. Mostly. 
Think of a pound of refrigerant like a pound of propane. Most of us know what that is. Not much. Liquid of course. 

Brad

From: AT  <mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> On Behalf Of Mike M
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2020 12:16 PM
To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com <mailto:at at lists.antique-tractor.com> 
Subject: Re: [AT] While we are OT on Refrigerators.

So an air conditioning system can't have a small leak that reduces the level of refrigerant over time? Then why did my son in law just have to add 2 lbs to our older AC unit? Where did it go?

Mike M

On 6/6/2020 2:59 PM, bradloomis at charter.net <mailto:bradloomis at charter.net>  wrote:

If it leaks it has a leak. No over time, no evaporating. A leak. Some repairable some not so much. Especially on a domestic refrigerator. Gets into cost of repair exceeds value of equipment. However that could cause excessive run time but the compartments would be warm, eventually hot. Dean indicated that temps were OK. Granted without a thermometer. Calibrated fingers? 😊

Brad

-----Original Message-----

Subject: Re: [AT] While we are OT on Refrigerators.

I would be suspicious of your refrigerant level, it can leak over time.

Mike M

On 6/5/2020 9:14 PM,  <mailto:deanvp at att.net> deanvp at att.net wrote:

> We have a GE side by side refrigerator, Model TFX27F, with all the bells and whistles Front Door Ice and Water dispenser, access door to refrigerator without opening the big door, etc  etc.  In fact we have a duplicate running in our kitchen right now.  This one was used as extra freezer and refrigerator space for awhile when we moved here 20 years ago and then it was turned off and not used for at least 10 years.   Well in my current need of making space in the garage I fired it back up to check everything to get it ready for sale.  It freezes and the refrigerator compartment gets cool like it should, well I haven't put a thermometer in each compartment, but it appears to me to be working.  Except..... it never quits running.  Not quite true  it runs about 95% of the time. Without having door opened or anything disturbed.   We have had such good luck with this era of combination freezer refrigerator I thought it might be worth something to those just getting on their feet.  I've cleaned the whole guts under the compartments and it really wasn't all that bad. The coils are clean as can be.  I doubt this thing is worth more than $100 running as it should but if I could find a cheap fix it might be worth spending $20 on a part or so.

> 

> And to satisfy the list needs of being on topic. I need to make more room for Antique Tractor stuff I don't need.    Any one have a test I can run or a particular part I can check? I'm pretty proficient electronics wise.  Besides if I could get this running properly somebody might take this off my hands and I won't have to deal with getting rid of it. It would take my loader tractor to get it in to my P/U bed. Big heavy sucker.   Help?  PS: I don't remember the last time I threw something away but I do remember it was traumatic.!   😊

> 

> Dean VP

> Snohomish, WA 98290

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