[AT] Brake disassembly

jdnut at aol.com jdnut at aol.com
Mon Apr 13 21:21:35 PDT 2020


Hi,I guess I didn't realize you didn't have the gear off.  The Service manual for the Model B styled tractor, in my opinion the best of all the service manuals.... shows removing the gear by using a punch on the end of the shaft.  On my recent exploration on some Deere "BO" brakes, I had that the gear came off with a gentle tap, one I took off with a bearing puller, and two, I did like the Deere "B" service manual shows.... assembly in a vice (mine was actually some wood to kinda keep things in place), the nut loose, on enough to keep the punch off the edge of the shaft...and a big punch and big hammer.  I used a little propane heat, just because that seems to help... and I was able to get the things loose with no damage.  The end of the shaft that the punch goes on has a depression to keep from damaging the threads.  
Once you get the drum off, the conical head of the adjustment bolt will be in a little well.  I used a little heat, then as it cooled, I put penetrating oil in the well, .... did that for 3-6 days... and pretty soon if you leave it overnight, you will see that the oil has run out around the bolt.  The oil in the well was also helpful in freeing up the little adjustment pins.  Be careful with those pins.... I haven't seen too many places to get them.  
If I get to my barn tomorrow, I may take some pictures of the service manual and my brake assemblies. 
Take care, John MaxwellFerndale CA


-----Original Message-----
From: STEVE ALLEN <steveallen855 at centurytel.net>
To: at <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Sent: Mon, Apr 13, 2020 1:40 pm
Subject: Re: [AT] AT Digest, Vol 27, Issue 13

Thanks heaps for the info, Dean; I really appreciate it.

To clarify a couple things:  
Yes, I have the assembly off the tractor.  I have the pedal off its shaft, and the pedal shaft is loose.  However, the brakes are still stuck tight, and I still haven't got the gear on the big shaft off.
Will I be able to remove the shaft and drum once I get the gear off even with the adjuster stuck?  With everything but the pedal shaft stuck tight still, I am not sure how I will get the main shaft/drum separated from the casting.

You are saying (I think) that hitting the adjuster on the end will actually cause it to turn some when it starts breaking free?

The gear is on there tight:  I am concerned about braking teeth as I use the gear puller.  I obviously need to get a better quality one than the one I have.  Any suggestions as to type?  That's a thick gear on a heavy shaft!

And yes, you give good advice that I should just suspect everything needs to be done.  Thing is, it is obvious somethings *have* been done.  The new idle and high speed in the carb are some examples.

Anyway, I'll keep at it!

The "original" Steve Allen

----- Original Message -----Message: 2
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 22:30:17 -0700
From: <deanvp at att.net>
To: "'Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group'"
    <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Subject: Re: [AT] JD A Update; Quick Question
Message-ID: <003b01d61154$9e97ec90$dbc7c5b0$@att.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"

The wiring on a distributor is the same as a Wico C Magneto. Top goes to #1
cylinder on the flywheel side. Bottom wire to plug on pulley side.

Using jumper cables to start JD's is an exercise in futility. Put a good
battery in and make sure you have good short heavy cables and connections.
All JD Two Cylinder tractors are Positive ground.  Too much power is lost in
the cables and connections when using jumper cables which typically are not
a big enough gauge to begin with. 

I think with what you are finding I think it would be wise to just assume
everything is bad and assume nothing has been fixed recently or ever.  That
will keep you from making incorrect assumptions that components should be
working. 

Now to the brakes.  Do you have the brake ASSEMBLY OFF OF THE TRACOTR?
Secondly do you have the  brake shoes off and all the associated parts,
especially those that contact the adjuster.  All components that contact the
adjuster cone need to be removed before attempting to remove the adjuster
rod.  When rotating the brake shaft do the pins slide back and forth that
apply pressure to the brake shoe?  In my experience ever single component
of the whole brake assembly needs to be individually removed and cleaned up.
But you are at least one step ahead in that the brake shaft turns that is a
big step forward. Removing the brake assembly from the tractor has tow
advantages. !,) there is less cast iron to heat up and 2.) It is easier to
work on.  I've never been able to get the adjuster to turn just using the
square end of the shaft without first hitting the square end with a BF
hammer while the brake casting is really hot for along time.  Then once I
can see some movement from hitting the end of the adjusting shaft the I
start trying to turn the shaft. The square end is the same size as the shaft
so even with a pipe wrench the moment arm isn't very good on the shaft even
with a big pipe wrench.  You might try to protect the square end of the
shaft with a socket but even if the end get bunged up ii is easy to clean up
once you get it out.  

So ok, you have the brake casting in the vice, remember now you have added
more metal mass to the brake assembly so it will take a lot of heat to get
hot enough.  Heat the casting all around where the adjusting shaft goes
through the casting. Heat some more further out, then around the shaft
again, over and over,  Then as rapidly as you can use the big hammer on then
of the adjuster shaft to see if you cant it to move.  Then go back and go
through the whole heating process Again and repeat the big hammer routine.
The only time you will be able to move the shaft is when it is hot.  Once
you get movement just keep working the shaft trying to get penetrating oil
in there.  I've never had good luck with melted wax but some swear by it.
Just simply heating and reheating multiple times will break the rust bond
and eventually it will come loose. It sometimes takes real brute force.  If
you fail put it aside and try again another time. I have never failed but
some are worse than others. 

The strange part will be when you do get everything apart and cleaned up
all the parts will be so lose you will wonder why they were stuck so tight
to begin with.  I have started using anti-seize grease on the shafts that
go through the castings. It just seems to stick to stuff better than normal
grease.  It sticks to anything it comes in contact with including you.
What happens are the shafts and associated openings are vents to the outside
world and they tend to draw moisture from the outside world  when the
tractor heats up and cools AND of course if the tractor is left outside in
the elements they are the path for moisture to get inside the brake
assembly.  So they rust up big time.  On newer two cylinder tractors JD put
"O" rings around those shafts to block some of that potential for moisture
getting in.  #1 rule is don't leave the tractor outside in the weather. 

Just remember you may have to be the meanest, baddest mechanic in the area
to break things loose. I have never broken a casting and I have run into a
few really bad ones.  I tend to do several brake assemblies at a time
because then I remember exactly what has worked and not worked.  Usually it
is more heat.  It will not be fun until you get them loose then you will
feel a real sense of accomplishment.  Anticipate severe cases of
frustration.  Good Luck.

Dean VP
Apache Junction, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> On Behalf Of STEVE ALLEN
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 8:59 PM
To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com
Subject: [AT] JD A Update; Quick Question

Fellows, here's an update on the A and a question.

My son and I spent much of the afternoon of Easter Vigil working on the A.
The battery is just about one step on a scale of 100 above dead, but I put
it in, and we made an attempt to start.

I put some gas in and opened up the valve on the sediment bowl, hooked up
the jumper cables to my pickup, turned on the key, gave him a bit of
throttle and choke, and hit the starter.  He turns over, stiffly.  That's
the battery, I'm sure.  The starter sounds fine, just isn't getting good
oompf.

No fire.  I decided to reduce to load on the starter and opened the cylinder
cocks.  The right side sprayed gas out in a stream.  Well.  obviously, the
gas is running straight into the cylinder.  Two things:  the valve on the
sediment bowl was leaking gas in even when it was closed, and the
needle-and-seat were not stopping the gas in the carb bowl.  I know the
float is OK because I checked it.  So I pulled the seat fitting out, and,
sure enough, the needle has a groove around it and no gasket under it.  #1
Next item on the purchase list:  Needle and seat.  The "new" shut-off valve
needs to be replaced, too:  I can only get it to shut off and not drip by
really cranking down on it.  The ancient one on my other A shuts off
reliably with just a little pressure.  Of, course, the new one is metric in
its outer dimensions, so I can guess where it was made.  #2 Next item on the
purchase list:  a higher quality shut-off valve for the sediment bowl.

Meanwhile, I had my son clean up the connections on the coil and the
ignition switch.  Pulled the coil wire off the coil, and the end was badly
corroded.  When we tested for spark by pulling the right plug and grounding
it against a cleaned spot on the frame, we got one spark but only one.  This
may be why.  and when he tried to clean it, the metal contact broke.  #3
Next item on the purchase list:  new coil wire.  #4 next item, then I will
probably get a new set of points while I am at it.  Oh, and a battery.  #5.

Now, here's my question:  I told my son to pull the plug wires of the
distributor to see if their ends were OK.  They are, but he can't remember
which one was on top and which the bottom.  My other A has a mag, so I know
which ones go where on it, but I don't know about the distributor.  Right or
left on top?  Good lesson for him--and a reminder to me not to assume he
knows more than he does.

Anyway, we also spent a long time on the brake.  I got the pedal off, and
the pedal shaft seems to be free, but the adjuster is still stuck tight.  I
got that iron nice and orange (got a rental bottle of acetylene) but no dice
yet.  I pulled the nut off the shaft and am working on the gear with a
puller.  Crank down, whack the puller with a hammer, crank a little more.  I
am leaving it under tension overnight.  I am not sure that it is moving, but
I keep at it.

I was hoping not to have to do the electrolysis because I will have to clean
up the machined surfaces very good very quickly to prevent a worse problem,
and I want to get the gear off first, if possible, but I am running out of
options.

I was told when I bought this tractor that it ran recently and was gone
through by a feller that does quality work and really takes care of his
equipment.  I begin to suspect that the story is embellished. . . .  I
absolutely prefer JDs, but I almost wish I'd spent the money on the 8N the
guy in town has for sale.  It runs.

Well, it's good experience for my son even if it frustrates me not to be
working WITH it yet but still working ON it.

The "original" Steve Allen
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