[AT] Charging batteries

Tue Mar 12 06:26:09 PDT 2019

An old-timer friend explained part of the issue with 6 volt systems. The
brushes in the starter will drop about 2 volts out of the 6 volts available
just in the brushes IF they're working correctly. That's a large loss that
can't really be made up by heavy cables or any of the other tricks used on
the 6 volt systems. Adding a couple volts to them really made a difference
IF the charging system could develop that much voltage. However, many times
it wouldn't because the generator didn't get enough RPM's due to belt
losses or slow engine speeds like our old tractors. So while 8 volt systems
were sometimes OK, there were fewer battery options and sometimes severe
system limitations until 12V was widely adopted.

I use 12V on the starter for my Case D's. The charging circuits are all 6
volt and I've been considering a boost circuit but after Cecil's issues
with the Belarus, I've reconsidered it and may just find a small alternator
that I can fit in there. It'll only work on belt driven ones (the generator
between the drive and magneto might be a tough one to substitute...) but
those projects all take "round tuits" that seem to be in short supply...

Ken in AZ

On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 9:49 PM <deanvp at att.net> wrote:

> I’ve listened to these charging problems but what I haven’t heard is what
> the charging voltage is at working RPM’s.  Then what the resulting charging
> current is at the working charge voltage. I’m really interested in trying
> to understand this problem. If the generator is doing it’s job then the
> problem either has to be the Regulator or Cut Out Relay.  On the 6V system
> I am familiar with on the 1940 Slant Dash B’s they also had a 3 position
> switch that determined how much the charging rate was desired.   But it
> seems to me that working back from the battery is the only way to figure
> out why the charging system is unreliable.    It isn’t rocket science and I
> think most if not all of us can understand the fundamentals.    But
> something important is being missed. If the 6 volt batter charging voltage
> isn’t approaching 7.5 to 8V “sum ting is wong.” So if that isn’t up to par
> work back through the relay and then to the generator.  I would honest
> guess the problem is the generator .  The disadvantage of a generator over
> a Alternator is the generator output is rpm dependent where it isn’t on the
> Alternator. But…..usually a tractor is worked at close to full throttle
> most of the time so a generator should be adequate.   But maybe there is
> another issue here. Maybe 6V is marginal even if everything is working
> properly.  Many 6V systems are converted to 8V or 12V systems and then work
> flawlessly. Even with a generator.   So maybe the bottom line is 6V will
> never work very well because it is under designed. For the job at hand. 6v
> leaves little to no margin even if charged and grounded properly. Maybe at
> 6V we are fencing with windmills.  And maybe 8V or 12V provides the margin
> that was needed even from the beginning of the life of the tractor.
> Sometimes the laws of physics are very unforgiving.
>
> Dean VP
>
> Apache junction, AZ
>
>
>
> *From:* AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> *On Behalf Of *Brian
> Lesh
> *Sent:* Monday, March 11, 2019 9:20 PM
> *To:* at at lists.antique-tractor.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AT] Charging batteries
>
>
>
> Dad bought a new Allis C, one bottom plow, 2 row corn planter and
> cultivator when he got home after WWII.  Always told me he would plow all
> day with the Allis then hook onto a harrow and harrow the plowed ground in
> about half hour.  Then he bought a used Allis C.  Plow with one and harrow
> with the other one I guess.  1948 he bought a DC Case.  The 2 Allis C's got
> to do the cultivating then.  6 22 inch rows on one and the other one had a
> 2 row corn cultivator.  Also had a 5 ft belly mower for one to cut
> alfalfa.  This was before my time but when I was growing up in the 60's the
> C's were still cultivating, mowing hay and the one would have duals on it
> in the spring to pull the harrow before planting.  The DC Case had a loader
> on it by then most of the time and the new big tractor was a Farmall Super
> M.  Anyway about the charging problem.  Seems like we cranked them C's most
> of the time in the morning but after cultivating till noon they would
> usually start after lunch with the starter.  If  we ever killed it turning
> on the ends and they were hot I would crank it like he told me a quarter
> turn at a time and it would never start.  He would show up and tell me
> never do this as he would spin it with the crank and get it to start.  So
> when Dad retired the C's were still being used cultivating and pulling
> wagons but he was pretty tired of buying batteries so the crank got used
> most of the time.
>
> As someone who grew up during the late 1940''s and early 1950's and as
> kid I was watching life very closely and asking a million questions. My
> father had many failings and we didn't always get along well but I have to
> give him credit for teaching me many skills and always being ready to
> answer questions and trying to teach me anything he was able to.
>
> The 1946 Allis Chalmers C that I own that was bought new by an extremely
> close family friend of three generations has almost since new been poor at
> keeping the battery charged. It was almost allways used for a lot of short
> running jobs with a lot of starts but short run times. When charging it
> usually only threw a couple of amps and at times it just wasn't in the mood
> to charge at all. His son had a "lot" of electrical training while in the
> army during WW-II and he cursed it constantly.
>
> Now this part may be new for a lot of the younger folks but in about the
> first half of the last century reasonably priced home battery chargers were
> mostly just not there. For many years it was very common for folks to
> remove the battery from their car or tractor and take it to a service
> station and pay to have it charged. I can well recall going into service
> stations in the early 1950's and seeing shelves sitting full of batteries
> being charged.
>
> My father had a very good friend in the late 1930's who had a service
> station in a small community about 8 miles from here. When war was declared
> after Pearl Harbor in December 1941 and the country went into war
> production in early 1942 his friend shut down the service station and both
> of them started working 12 hour shifts 7 days a week at Allison's in Indy.
> I don't know what his friend did but my father was testing aircraft
> engines. Since he was making very good money he bought a lot of the tools
> and equipment out of the service station from his friend. One of those
> items was a large battery charger capable of charging 12 batteries at a
> time.
>
> On another tractor note, that was the same time that he bought his new
> 1941 9N and a batch of farm equipment.
>
> Back to the Allis C, the family friend kept the C in a tiny shed and his
> son ran an electric line out to it. Then he built a 6 volt charger from a
> junk yard auto generator, a matching voltage regulator and a smallish
> electric motor to drive the generator. I recall being really impressed as a
> kid the first time I saw it running. Then again in those days I was
> impressed by about anything with moving parts that made noise.  :-)
>
> That Allis still has major rounds of depression when It doesn't want to
> charge... We replaced the generator with a rebuilt one from TSC and
> replaced the cut-out with a conversion kit that used a conventional voltage
> regulator and did away with the original light / charge rate switch and all
> wiring replaced. I can assure you that I have checked the grounds, checked
> the grounds, checked the grounds until I am blue in the face but it still
> lacks reliability. I think that I will break with my normal approach and
> convert it to 12 volts and a smallish alternator. I'll just keep all of the
> original stuff in a box on a shelf up in the loft. Over the years I have
> usually just used the crank to start it if it was weak but the family
> friend was elderly, very slightly built and in poor health and that tractor
> does crank kind if hard. He just couldn't crank start it.
>
>
>
>
>
> .
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> --
>
> Francis Robinson
> aka "farmer"
> Central Indiana USA
> robinson46176 at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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