[AT] Fiat

[bloomis at charter.net]

6430s are what my company uses in our California vineyards. Just under 10,000 acres. Not sure what they use in Australia, where we are based. I wasn't in that area, I was in winery maintenance. Just have a thing for tractors for about 60+ years. 😊

Bradford

 

-----Original Message-----
From: AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> On Behalf Of Grant Brians
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2019 11:57 AM
To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com
Subject: Re: [AT] Fiat

 

I do not own any Fiat derived New Holland model tractors, but I do have some insight. Yes, Fiat colors and badging look was maintained in some markets in Europe for a few years where they were popular. Fiat was indeed popular in some countries because Fiat did build low cost and reasonably reliable tractors. But it is also true that they required a level of care that was higher than our traditional American Antique tractors or the British Fordsons. Nearly all of the Ford models were initially carried forward and see my later comments about newer models.

     Today, the new farm machinery market is rather different than it was even 25 years ago. First, the number of tractor operators is much smaller. Second, plastic and electronics have taken over from almost only metal and rubber. This has led to lighter, less traditionally durable but "easier to operate" units. I place the "easier to operate" 

in quotes because in reality it is simply more like modern cars and less like a heavy duty tool as our older machinery is. This leads to lots of cabs with air-conditioning, touch screens to operate planters / sprayers / combines / etc. Are they actually easier to operate? Only if one is oriented toward those items.

     Second, regarding the suggestion that CNH Global is Fiat, is that true. The Agnelli family does own a large chunk of CNH Global. The business is operated and managed by hired managers, few of the top people are from the Fiat sources and fewer who are Italian. The Agnellis appear to have looked for two goals in operating the company. First is keeping the business profitable i.e. in the leading group of competitive manufacturers worldwide. Second is to not decrease the amount of their presence in Italy. The first goal assures that they will try to remain competitive with Deere, AGCO, Kubota, Caterpillar, etc. The second goal assures that they will have fewer problems from their home country.

     Looking at the designs of CNH equipment, there is a definite connection to the Ford, New Holland, Case roots of most of the products they currently build. There were initially quite a few Fiat designs that carried over, but the later engines are NOT based on the Fiat designs, rather on Ford and Cummins. Nearly all of the remaining power train components are also substantially different than the Fiat legacy. The ONE spot where the old Fiat technology seems to be close to the new units is the small crawlers. Those vineyard / orchard / nursery models are nearly identical to the White / Hesston / Fiat units of the 70s to current, with really only engine updates to meet emissions and noise requirements.

     I have purchased 4 new tractors since 1997. 1 was a New Holland assembled in Mexico from mostly US and UK parts and design (an NH6610S that was essentially a more powerful Ford 6000/8000 from the 1960s) and

3 John Deere 6430 units (German built, designed and shipped here). I only bought Deere because of superior service and sales from the dealership when a sales person at the New Holland dealership basically abandoned the sale. In looking at the performance of the tractors I purchased and the New Holland models that I would have purchased otherwise, both are comparable quality, similar features and not cheap but very functional. I am also aware of bad units from every manufacturer that are out there and I have worked on both our tractors and also other farmers units over the years. It appears to me that all have pluses and minuses and that except for small tractors all now have LOTS of electronics and plastic. I hate the plastic - except the fiberglass roofs we have on all of our newer tractors - and don't care for the complexity and relatively lower reliability of the electronics. 

On the other hand, there is a bit more power per gallon than the older units.

     In short, the current global nature of the economy is frustrating, with farming profitability very hard to attain for many reasons. 

Consolidation of manufacturers into very large companies has not been helpful for most of us commercial farmers partly due to more return to the capital sources that they pay to operate. Also, influences of big companies and international players has made it harder and harder to survive for us. But just as Cecil likes his Belarus tractors, and some like the low tech smaller Mahindras and a few can handle the low quality Chinese imports, The world is not the 1940s with lots of interesting smaller manufacturers and most of us commercial farmers have a limited number of new tractor brands to choose from....

             Grant Brians

p.s. In terms of Fiat direct ownership I don't have any actual Fiat tractors. I do have a Long 560 Mudder that I have never put the new parts on to use it that was basically a Romanian built tractor using old Fiat tooling!

     On 1/21/2019 7:48 AM, Cecil Bearden wrote:

> The TS110 New Holland I have was produced at the Ford plant in 

> Coventry England.   It is essentially a 7610 Ford with newer 

> accessories and hood design.   Presently I am replacing the shifter 

> cable for the range shifter.   $265 for the cable that was $125 last 

> year, and a 6 hour job due to the difficulty of getting the shifter 

> end of the cable worked into the mounting in the cab....

> Cecil

> 

> On 1/21/2019 8:57 AM, James Peck wrote:

>> CNH is just a cover name for Fiat. Initially, existing Fiat Models 

>> were being labelled New Holland.

>> 

>>  <https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1990-08-01-9003040603-stor> https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1990-08-01-9003040603-stor

>> y.html

>> 

>> 

>> (Cecil Bearden} From Google I don't get that..."

>> [One of the top players worldwide in the agricultural and 

>> construction equipment sectors, 

>>  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNH_Global> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNH_Global was created in 1999 through 

>> the merger of New Holland and

>>  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_Corporation.https:/en.wikipedia.o> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_Corporation.https://en.wikipedia.o

>> rg/wiki/CNH_Industrial#cite_note-CNH_AGREEMENT-4

>> In 2011 Fiat Industrial was formed following the demerger of the 

>> activities of Iveco, CNH Global N.V. and FPT Industrial from Fiat S.p.A.

>> In 2013 CNH Industrial was formed following the merger of Fiat 

>> Industrial and CNH Global N.V.

>> In 2014 the company entered into a new licensing agreement with 

>>  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumitomo_Group> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumitomo_Group (S.H.I.) Construction 

>> Machinery and completed acquisition of Miller-St. Nazianz, Inc.

>> In 2016 CNH Industrial acquired Kongskilde Agriculture and entered 

>> exclusive mini-excavator alliance with 

>>  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Heavy_Industries> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Heavy_Industries.

>> CNH Industrial N.V. is one of the world's largest 

>>  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_good> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_good companies, registered in 

>> the  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands with corporate offices 

>> in London. It is financially controlled by the investment company 

>>  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exor_(company)> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exor_(company), which belongs to the 

>>  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnelli_family> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnelli_family.]

>> In 2014 the price of New Holland Parts were increased 45%. Dealers 

>> told patrons it was due to Fiat entering into CNH. This will end up 

>> being another disaster for farm equipment just like AGCO.

>> 

>> (james} The Fiat brand has been New Holland for 29 years or so. Does 

>> New Holland think the brand still has sales appeal

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>  <https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/brand-new-fiat-tractor-lands-in-> https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/brand-new-fiat-tractor-lands-in-

>> ireland-in-the-midlands/

>> 

>> 

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