[AT] JD B resurrection contemplation

Wed Apr 5 13:50:29 PDT 2017

I am continualy amazed how this group of antique tractor collectors can take an relatively mundane task of trying to get a stuck piston loose in a relatively simple JD Two Cylinder engine and turn it in into a state of the art metal technology requirement.Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy Tablet
-------- Original message --------From: Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com> Date/5/17  10:42 AM  (GMT-07:00) To: Antique tractor email discussion group <at at lists.antique-tractor.com> Subject: Re: [AT] JD B resurrection contemplation 
Jim Thomson knows a lot about cryogenics - his family is in the heat
treating business.  However I'm not sure he'll see this right away, since
he just started a new job.  However he's still in Massachusetts; he didn't
take that job down in Danville VA that was discussed here recently.
Hopefully he chimes in.  In the meantime, here's a link that delves into
cryogenic treatment.  It's rather technical but most people that understand
metals will get something out of it:

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/shopmanagement/cryogenic-processingadispelling-the-myths-mysteries

And here's one quote lifted from midway thru the article:

“This is a continuation of the heat-treating process,” said Kathi Bond,
founder of CryoPlus Inc., Wooster, Ohio. “Heat-treaters take the material
from room temperature to a high temperature, then back to room
temperature,” she said. “We take it from room temperature to -300 degrees F
and back to room temperature. It’s a big curve. They start it and we finish
it.”

SO

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 11:34 AM, charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com>
wrote:

> Cecil,  the racing industry (NASCAR, etc.)  has gone to cryogenic
> hardening for critical race parts.  They used to heat treat but found
> that the hardening occurs due to the cooling effect so it's easier to
> freeze than to heat and then cool.  Or at least that's how it was explained
> in an article I read. (subject to my memory)
>
> Charlie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cecil Bearden
> Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 3:27 PM
> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> Subject: Re: [AT] JD B resurrection contemplation
>
> Liquid N can be bought at a lot of welding supply stores that sell
> gases.  It can be kept for a while in a thermos bottle with a hole
> drilled in the cap.  It will evaporate and release pressure, If you cap
> it completely without the relief hole, the thermos will blow up.  It is
> kept under about 3000 PSI at the supply.  An Artificial  Insemination
> supply also carries it.  A lot of dealers in semen will be on a delivery
> route.   I have a 20 Liter Dewar I bought and use it for freeze
> branding.  It also works great for removing skin moles, tags, etc.
> Pistons dipped in Liquid N for a while are harder when put into
> service.  Some steels harden in the presence of Liquid N.   I have just
> found it to be real handy when making interference fits, fitting piston
> pins, and just busting rust.  If I did not keep it around for branding,
> I would never have starting using it.  The Thermos bottle trick will
> work for about 3 days...
>
> Cecil in OKla
>
>
>
> On 4/4/2017 12:24 PM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
> > I think dry ice is definitely worth a try, because it's far easier to
> > obtain and to work with than liquid nitrogen.
> >
> > Dry ice is -110F and it's a solid.  Liquid nitrogen is -320F and it's a
> > liquid.  Not only is liquid nitrogen far colder than dry ice, but also,
> >   being a liquid it will have intimate contact with the vessel containing
> > it... that vessel being the upside-down piston in this case.  The trick
> > with dry ice would be to figure out how to get it into good contact with
> > the inside of the piston.  Another upside to dry ice is that there's less
> > danger of things becoming so brittle that they shatter, which matters if
> > you're trying to re-use the parts.
> >
> >
> >
> > SO
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 12:26 PM, charlie hill <
> charliehill at embarqmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Al,  the Nitrogen will lower the temperature of the piston dramatically
> >> and cause it to shrink, breaking the bond with the cyl. wall.
> >> A hunk of dry ice laid on top of the piston should do the same thing.
> >> At least that is what I think it would do.
> >>
> >> Charlie
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Al Jones
> >> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2017 9:41 PM
> >> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> >> Subject: Re: [AT] JD B resurrection contemplation
> >>
> >> Cecil, can you elaborate on the liquid Nitrogen thing for removing
> >> stuck pistons?
> >>
> >> Al
> >>
> >> On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 6:11 PM, Cecil Bearden <crbearden at copper.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>> If you have to remove the block w/ stuck pistons, turn it upside down,
> >>> fill the pistons up to the tops of the skirts with liquid Nitrogen,
> >>> Liquid propane works too, I used it until I got a Dewar.  Let it sit
> >>> awhile then try to push the pistons out with a hardwood block or a
> heavy
> >>> metal spacer that just fits into the bore, and a hydraulic jack.  If
> you
> >>> have a big press that would be great.
> >>>
> >>> Cecil in OKla
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 4/2/2017 9:44 PM, deanvp wrote:
> >>>> John, Excellent advice. I've had good luck filling the cylinders with
> a
> >>>> favorite concoction, assuming both valves are closed and rocker arm
> and
> >>>> spark plugs removed, and use a long bar tied to the flywheel. Let it
> >> soak
> >>>> for days maybe even weeks. Each day try to turn the flywheel. When it
> >>>> is
> >>>> ready it will pop loose. Then work the flywheel back and forth until
> >>>> you
> >>>> can get it to turn several revolutions. Then have someone pull you on
> >> the
> >>>> tractor with it in gear with either Kerosene or Diesel fuel in the
> >>>> crankcase.  Let the engine turn over and over until it is fully
> >> loose.The
> >>>> thinner fluid helps get the cylinder wall lubricated faster than
> >>>> regular
> >>>> oil.  Then do what you normally do to start it the first time. It may
> >>>> exhaust all kinds of crap out the muffler and will probably exhaust a
> >> lot
> >>>> of blue smoke for a long time due to oil rings which may be stuck.
> Get
> >>>> the engine up to operating temperature(200 degrees if possible) and
> run
> >>>> it at that temp for at least 15 minutes. Then !
> >> s!
> >>>   hut it down for at least 24 hours and start it again and see if the
> >>> blue
> >>> smoke is less.  Repeat as necessary. The heating and cooling will
> >>> eventually release the stuck rings if you are lucky. I've saved three 2
> >>> cylinder JD engines this way and have never needed to tear them down.
> >>> Might be worth a try. Worst case you will have to tear it down.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy Tablet
> >>>> -------- Original message --------From: John Hall <jtchall at nc.rr.com>
> >>>> Date: 4/2/17  7:00 PM  (GMT-07:00) To: Antique tractor email
> discussion
> >>>> group <at at lists.antique-tractor.com> Subject: Re: [AT] JD B
> >> resurrection
> >>>> contemplation
> >>>> If the cylinders are stuck because they are full of water, then
> >>>> nothing,
> >>>> you are going to have to take it apart and remove the gunk. VERIFY
> that
> >>>> the valves are not stuck or you WILL break something (been there done
> >>>> that)---ever notice how many hit-and-miss engines have the rocker arm
> >>>> post welded back to the head? The problem with trying to soak a Deere
> >>>> is
> >>>> the amount of fluid it takes to fill up the cylinder, of course if
> >>>> there
> >>>> is a valve open you are going to be filling up something else as well.
> >>>> When we were working on my Titan 10-20 (also a 2 cylinder horizontal
> >>>> engine), I just went to Lowes and bought a gallon of wd-40 and poured
> >>>> half in each cylinder and let it soak until we ever got it in the
> shop,
> >>>> somewhere between a week and 2 months, I don't remember. I've heard
> >>>> good
> >>>> things about diesel and ATF, besides its cheap. If this turns out to
> be
> >>>> a worst case scenario of frozen solid, Then pull the engine and safely
> >>>> secure it with the bores upright so you can resort to better
> >>>> penetrating
> >>>> oils such as PB-Blaster or Kroil. I had one so bad once we poured in
> >>>> diesel fuel and set it on fire. Obviously there are many dangers with
> >>>> that and you need to think ahead and have at least one other person
> >>>> around for help. Know before you decide to beat the crap out of the
> >>>> pistons to remove them, you need to make something that has a little
> >>>> bit
> >>>> of clearance in the bore and has a relieved center--remember the
> center
> >>>> of the piston isn't stuck so you don't need to hit it--you need to hit
> >>>> the skirt/sides, thats the reason for the relieved face. I've heard of
> >>>> using wood but I prefer metal myself. For really bad engines I've
> heard
> >>>> of dry ice, boiling water,lots of ideas. Lets hope yours is rather
> >>>> "boring" and comes apart easily.
> >>>>
> >>>> Well I got long winded on that, keep us posted please, been a
> >>>> LOOOOOOONG
> >>>> time since anyone here actually took on a restoration like this (if
> >>>> they
> >>>> did I don't recall any posts about it).
> >>>>
> >>>> John Hall
> >>>>
> >>>> On 4/2/2017 5:52 PM, Al Jones wrote:
> >>>>> Now, I know it's been discussed a million times, and everyone has
> >>>>> their
> >>>>> favorite, but what do you think would be the best "julip" to start
> >>>>> soaking it with?  My notion is to fill the spark plug holes as well
> as
> >>>>> fill the main case....I fear there's rust in the crankcase/tranny
> >>>>> because the gear shift lever is stuck.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Al
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
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