[AT] OT LED question

Ken Knierim ken.knierim at gmail.com
Mon Nov 7 07:05:18 PST 2016


    If I ever get my round tuits refilled I've picked up a transformer
based DC-DC booster for converting 4-5 VDC to 12 VDC with the intention of
putting a set of LED lights on my '41 Case DH and using the original 6V
positive ground electrical system. I've had the parts for months but that
project never seems to get to the level of "get 'r done". Maybe this year
after hunting season. (ha!)
    I also experimented with a 100 watt LED that includes its own lens. Not
very expensive but requires and comes with a rather sizeable heatsink. My
thinking was that I might make up a set of driving lights for some of my
older cars that can reach out and touch something. A pair of 100 watt LED's
set to around 50-70 watt output seems like it would be perfect.
    What I've found is that folks in newer vehicles (with modern lights)
tend to ignore the old cars as far as dimming to oncoming traffic. Once in
a while I'd like to gently "remind" them to be courteous. And have lights
for those long dark desert roads that itch "need" to be driven. :)

Ken in AZ


On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 7:47 PM, Dave <rotigel at me.com> wrote:

> Hi Cecil,
>         My guess is that you do not drive your 37 Plymouth very often, or
> far, at night. Why not mount a 12 volt set of removable headlights on the
> bumper and connect them to a fully charged 12 volt battery under the hood
> that could also be removed (and hidden in the trunk) for “show” times?
>         Dave
> PS, ’37 was a remarkable year—at least from my perspective!
>
>
> > On Nov 6, 2016, at 9:18 PM, Cecil Bearden <crbearden at copper.net> wrote:
> >
> > Re: My old 1937 Plymouth with the 6 volt lights.   I really need to find
> > a listing on the bulb that is supposed to be used in the reflectors.  If
> > the filament is not in the right place, it would certainly make a
> > difference.  I have kept it all original, including the interior.   If I
> > can find 6 volt led headlight assemblies, I could mount them on the
> > bumper like fog lights and It would solve the problem.
> >
> >
> > On 11/6/2016 6:36 PM, rlgoss at twc.com wrote:
> >> This is the first time I have seen a discussion of this topic in more
> than 40 years.  My father was a design engineer for GE for most of his
> career, and he used to describe this process to me.  (Feeling nostalgic
> here.)
> >>
> >> Larry
> >> ---- Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> That's very interesting, Herb!  I know zero about tungsten metallurgy,
> but
> >>> it certainly sounds like they were worried about something at the ingot
> >>> level, something like impurity levels perhaps.
> >>>
> >>> Accelerated life testing of incandescents is pretty easy.  Just boost
> the
> >>> voltage.  There is a very strong, but also very predictable, life
> reduction
> >>> at elevated voltages.  I found this graph that puts it all together
> pretty
> >>> nicely.  You can see several things here; for example, see how the
> efficacy
> >>> increases at elevated voltage (chart says efficacy is up 20% for a 10%
> >>> voltage increase)  and life is cut by about 2/3 at that same point.
> With
> >>> voltage up 20%, life is shortened by over 90%.  You can life-test a
> 2000-hr
> >>> bulb and get answers in less than a week.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Documents/IN%20Voltage.htm
> >>>
> >>> SO
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Herb Metz <metz-h.b at comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Stephen's post is interesting, and as always, informative.  Decades
> ago
> >>>> (1960's), when I was an engineer at GE (Appliance Control Dept), we
> had a
> >>>> tour of a GE lighting manufacturing facility.  Even though their
> ingots for
> >>>> bulb filament were special, as one would expect, they would make a
> short
> >>>> production run of bulbs from each ingot (this was my understanding at
> that
> >>>> time), then accelerate life test these bulbs before using that ingot.
> >>>> Looking back, wish someone would have questioned: accelerated test
> method,
> >>>> number of filaments/ingot (1,000's, maybe millions), criteria for
> >>>> determining if ingot was useable, etc.  I have no idea as to when GE
> >>>> started
> >>>> large scale manufacturing of incandescant bulbs; nor how long they
> >>>> continued
> >>>> this above practice. Herb(GA)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Stephen Offiler
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2016 6:53 AM
> >>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> >>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT LED question
> >>>>
> >>>> Charlie, I do not believe I expressed or implied ANY doubt about your
> >>>> convenience-store 100W bulbs.  What I posted was the details of the
> Act of
> >>>> Congress that created this situation, not exclusively directed at
> you, but
> >>>> also for the others on the list who might be interested in what
> happened to
> >>>> the incandescent bulb.  I also mentioned one way (did not say it was
> the
> >>>> ONLY way) an EISA compliant 100W incandescent can be built (halogen).
> >>>>
> >>>> Draw your own conclusions, everyone.  Are old-school incandescent
> bulbs
> >>>> actually still legal?  Well, if labeled "Rough Service" the answer is
> yes.
> >>>>   Is Charlie's convenience store selling legal bulbs?  Are there
> other ways
> >>>> to make a legal 100W bulb?  That question is interesting and I've
> commented
> >>>> a bit on that too.  The Act requires increased efficiency, which in
> >>>> lighting engineering is called efficacy.  It is lumens (light
> quantity)
> >>>> divided by the electricity in watts needed to create that light.
> >>>>
> >>>> An incandescent bulb can be designed with a heavy filament that runs
> cooler
> >>>> and resists burning out, but the efficacy suffers.  These are the
> outlawed
> >>>> bulbs.  Or they can be designed with a light filament that runs hot
> and
> >>>> puts out more light per watt.  In theory, such a bulb can be made to
> comply
> >>>> with EISA.  The problem is that light, hot-running filament will burn
> out
> >>>> very rapidly.  It is at least possible that the convenience-store
> bulbs are
> >>>> of this nature.
> >>>>
> >>>> Halogens are interesting because they a light, hot filament that
> resists
> >>>> burnout because the halogen gases (such as Argon, Krypton, etc)
> actually
> >>>> hold the tungsten molecules and allow them to re-plate back onto the
> >>>> filament, basically recycling them, instead of letting the filament
> erode.
> >>>> That is the basic magic of halogen bulbs.
> >>>>
> >>>> SO
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 11:32 AM, charlie hill <
> charliehill at embarqmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Steve I don't doubt what you are saying but you seem to doubt
> everything
> >>>>> I say.  I'm telling you the man is selling old style incandescent
> bulbs.
> >>>>> I
> >>>>> don't
> >>>>> know how he gets them or if they are legal but they are NOT halogen,
> >>>>> disguised or not.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Charlie
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Stephen Offiler
> >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 9:29 PM
> >>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT LED question
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you, Ken.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Charlie, I merely stated a few facts regarding 100W incandescents.
> >>>>> Nothing
> >>>>> I said was intended to argue against anything you said.  You are
> reading
> >>>>> way too much into this.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would go on to explain the concept of efficacy in lighting, and how
> >>>> much
> >>>>> it varies with incandescents of the conventional as well as the
> halogen
> >>>>> variety, and how you can still design a conventional (non-halogen)
> 100W
> >>>>> incan but there's no free lunch; if it meets government regulations
> its
> >>>>> life will be a small fraction of what you'd call reasonable.  But
> I'll
> >>>>> stop
> >>>>> here to keep the peace.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> SO
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:27 PM, Ken Knierim <ken.knierim at gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Charlie, please ease up. Steve is a talented, detail-oriented
> engineer
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>> he's correct. halogen lamps are a type of incandescent light.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halogen_lamp
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Rough service bulbs can still be made here in the US last I knew.
> It's
> >>>> a
> >>>>>> corner case they allowed for awhile.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In Arizona the ballasts in the CFL's do NOT like the heat and die
> >>>>>> frequently. And don't break one or you have mercury to deal with.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Since I (may) sell and service semiconductor equipment for Cree I am
> >>>>>> partial to their hardware (can't say for certain due to lawyers of
> >>>>>> course),
> >>>>>> but any new technology will have its warts. The Phillips/Lumileds
> parts
> >>>>>> seem to be rated for higher temp operation and that's important for
> >>>>>> outdoor
> >>>>>> lighting here. The Feit Electric (chinese) parts have a higher
> failure
> >>>>>> rate
> >>>>>> in my limited tested.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ken in AZ
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:50 PM, Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Charlie, are they by any chance what they refer to as a heavy duty
> or
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>> rough service bulb? I know they can still make those legally. I got
> >>>> so
> >>>>>>> tired of the florescent squiggly bulbs in our barn, try feeding
> >>>> horses
> >>>>>>> at 4 AM, when it's 0 degrees outside, all I would get is a faint
> >>>> glow.
> >>>>>>> Replaced all the bulbs with _300 watt_ incandescent bulbs, now I
> >>>>>>> actually see and work on my tan.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Mike M
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 11/4/2016 6:22 PM, charlie hill wrote:
> >>>>>>>> There you go again Steve.  I TOLD YOU IT IS A 100 WATT
> INCANDESCENT
> >>>>>> BULB.
> >>>>>>>> Did I say anything about a halogen bulb inside a incandescent
> >>>>>>>> envelope?
> >>>>>>>> I know you think I'm stupid but give it a break man.  Do you have
> >>>> to
> >>>>>>> argue
> >>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>> EVERYTHING anyone says to you??????????????????????????????
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Charlie
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: Stephen Offiler
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 5:47 PM
> >>>>>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT LED question
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The act of Congress that imposed efficiency restrictions on
> >>>>>>>> lighting,
> >>>>>>>> effectively outlawing those old-school 100 watt incandescent
> bulbs,
> >>>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>>> signed into law by President Bush in 2007.  It's called the EISA,
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> Energy Independence and Security Act.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It is possible to manufacture a 100-watt bulb that meets EISA,
> with
> >>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>> halogen bulb inside a normal incandescent glass envelope.  It
> would
> >>>>> be
> >>>>>>>> cheaper to manufacture this design in low-labor-cost countries
> such
> >>>>> as
> >>>>>>>> China.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Why does my local power company  subsidize the purchase of LED
> >>>>>>>> bulbs?
> >>>>>>>> Seems backward, doesn't it?  They are going to be selling me less
> >>>>>>>> electricity.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> SO
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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