[AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
Cecil R Bearden
crbearden at copper.net
Fri Aug 14 06:51:35 PDT 2015
I think the Leroi has problems with the minimum pressure valve
sticking... I have the manual for the later model Sullair compressor,
and it is very similar if not the same thing.. So, I will try again.
Cecil
On 8/14/2015 8:19 AM, charlie hill wrote:
> Cecil, have you checked the diaphragm and the vacuum piping
> going to it? In the back of my mind I was thinking that problem
> had to do with a bad diaphragm but couldn't remember for sure
> so I didn't say it.
>
> Charlie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cecil R Bearden
> Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 7:09 AM
> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> Subject: Re: [AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
>
> If these were diesel you could hold open the throttle and it would run.
> However with gasoline, The engine has to get ahead of the compressor.
> The Leroi has only a pressure regulator that has a line that goes to the
> valve in the intake line. I can put a board over the intake and leave
> only a small slit open and it will seem to relieve the load some.
> This did not seem to help the Sullair. The Sullair has a large diaphram
> linked to the governor and to a butterfly valve on the compressor. The
> manual on setting it requires the engine to run it up to minimum pressure.
>
> It is a big chore, but it looks like I am going to have to get the front
> cover end off of the engine and replace the timing belt. If I have to
> spend 4-6 hours to get this open, There is no way I am going to let it
> go back together without replacing the belt and idler that costs only
> $36........
>
> I have a small cummins in a road sweeper. It was running when we loaded
> it and hauled it here. Also have several overhead valve 6 cyl ford
> engines in sweepers. If the bell housings are the same, These2.3 liters
> may find another home. I cannot help but think a lot of my problems are
> the sorry excuse for gasoline we have now. I use only 93 Octane no
> ethanol, but it just does not have the power gasoline used to have...
> It takes a lot of tiem and trouble, but I could switch them to propane.
> I just need to make sure the engines are running well enough to put on
> propane. All the mechanics around here who would have known how to
> diagnose these are gone...
>
> Cecil in OKla
>
>
>
>
> On 8/14/2015 12:12 AM, charlie hill wrote:
>> Cecil, I've seen this happen before on other compressors but
>> never had to work on them myself. I knew two people that
>> could have told me exactly what is wrong but unfortunately both
>> of them died in the last 18 months. From what he wrote
>> earlier I think Bo has a good handle on it. Maybe he can help.
>> I'll tell you this, it's something in the mechanism that controls the
>> pressure relief and the governor. Having never actually worked on
>> one of them myself I can't tell you exactly what but I've seen the
>> guys tie a piece of wire on the linkage and tie the other end off
>> to hold it open (or maybe closed) to make them run.
>> Now yours being gas instead of diesel it could be all together different
>> in the way it works but somewhere
>> there is a mechanical connection that unloads the compressor.
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Cecil R Bearden
>> Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 10:21 PM
>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>> Subject: Re: [AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
>>
>> What are the chances of having 2 ford industrial engines on air
>> compressors that will not pull the compressor up to pressure. I got he
>> Leroi running today, however, One time I got it up to 60PDI and
>> holding. However when you cut off the outlet valve and waited for it to
>> idle back, it never happened. Now the engine just loads up and maybe
>> will run 10psi any more and it dies............ These things are not
>> worth a service ticket at a dealership, and trying to find someone like
>> me who used to work on this junk is out of the question......
>>
>> Cecil in Okla
>>
>>
>> On 8/12/2015 11:38 AM, Spencer Yost wrote:
>>> My father-in-law bought a Ford Courier(Ford engine not Mazda engine) in
>>> 1978. He gave it to me in 2004 or so after he wore it out and beat it
>>> up. My son shortly after was towing his boat and had the engine
>>> overheat when a radiator hose busted. Didn't hurt the head or gasket,
>>> but coked up the oil passages in the overhead cam for the valve levers.
>>> A few levers were starved for oil and one wore out enough that it would
>>> fall off its post occasionally.
>>>
>>> I got very fast and good at removing the air cleaner, valve cover,
>>> turning
>>> the engine, putting the lever back on and reassembling. I think I had it
>>> down to 5-10 mins. I finally put a reman-ed head on it because the
>>> machine shop wanted more to ream the coke out.
>>>
>>> Body was nearly rusted out when I sold it about 4-5 years ago. Ran great
>>> and had manual choke to smooth out cold running. I kinda miss that truck
>>> now.
>>>
>>> Spencer
>>>
>>>> On Aug 12, 2015, at 8:40, <rlgoss at twc.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The fortunate thing about the Courier was that it did NOT have an
>>>> interference engine in it. I drove one until the timing belt broke, and
>>>> found out that no damage could occur inside.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Larry
>>>> ---- charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Cecil, that old Courier that I drove ran rough as a cob all the time.
>>>> It started hard and rattled and shook but it never left me beside the
>>>> road. I figured at the time it might be the timing belt on it and
>>>> really
>>>> hoped it would let go so they would get me something half decent to
>>>> drive but it never did in the months I drove it. I don’t like and try
>>>> to
>>>> avoid any engines with overhead cams particularly if they are
>>>> "interference"
>>>> engines. I know those engines are very common now and mostly
>>>> reliable and good performers but I'm old school enough that I want my
>>>> cam shafts gear or gear and chain driven.
>>>>
>>>> Charlie
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Cecil R Bearden
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 11:03 PM
>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
>>>>
>>>> Charlie:
>>>> I wondered about the timing belt. This compressor will sit for a month
>>>> or 3 then get used for many times as much as an hour at a time... It is
>>>> used to blow off hay balers, hay swathers, mowers, real dirty work. Have
>>>> not sandblasted in many years... I questioned a Ford friend of mine
>>>> about maybe the timing belt stuck to the toothed pulley while it sat and
>>>> when I started it, it came off and would be out of time.. I assume the
>>>> easiest way would be to check the timing at the distributor. Trying to
>>>> get to the timing pulleys to view them is at least a 4 hour job.... I
>>>> would have to remove the radiator, the top section of the enclosure,
>>>> and then the timing cover. I used to do this in about 2 hours, now, it
>>>> is a day or two job...
>>>>
>>>> Cecil in OKla
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The fortunate thing about the Courier was that it did NOT have an
>>>> interference engine in it. I drove one until the timing belt broke, and
>>>> found out that no damage could occur inside.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Larry
>>>> ---- charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Cecil, that old Courier that I drove ran rough as a cob all the time.
>>>> It started hard and rattled and shook but it never left me beside the
>>>> road. I figured at the time it might be the timing belt on it and
>>>> really
>>>> hoped it would let go so they would get me something half decent to
>>>> drive but it never did in the months I drove it. I don’t like and try
>>>> to
>>>> avoid any engines with overhead cams particularly if they are
>>>> "interference"
>>>> engines. I know those engines are very common now and mostly
>>>> reliable and good performers but I'm old school enough that I want my
>>>> cam shafts gear or gear and chain driven.
>>>>
>>>> Charlie
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Cecil R Bearden
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 11:03 PM
>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
>>>>
>>>> Charlie:
>>>> I wondered about the timing belt. This compressor will sit for a month
>>>> or 3 then get used for many times as much as an hour at a time... It is
>>>> used to blow off hay balers, hay swathers, mowers, real dirty work. Have
>>>> not sandblasted in many years... I questioned a Ford friend of mine
>>>> about maybe the timing belt stuck to the toothed pulley while it sat and
>>>> when I started it, it came off and would be out of time.. I assume the
>>>> easiest way would be to check the timing at the distributor. Trying to
>>>> get to the timing pulleys to view them is at least a 4 hour job.... I
>>>> would have to remove the radiator, the top section of the enclosure,
>>>> and then the timing cover. I used to do this in about 2 hours, now, it
>>>> is a day or two job...
>>>>
>>>> Cecil in OKla
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/11/2015 9:48 PM, charlie hill wrote:
>>>>> Cecil, I wouldn't doubt that Sullair and Leroi are the same.
>>>>> It could well be. As I think about it, my preference for Leroi
>>>>> probably
>>>>> has more to do with what was available to us from a local dealer that
>>>>> we trusted and dealer support than anything else. Back in the late
>>>>> 70's to early 80's we had an Atlas Copco compressor with an air cooled
>>>>> Deutz diesel. it was a real workhorse but over the years we had to
>>>>> have
>>>>> the air end (screw compressor) rebuilt a couple of times. 185 CFM
>>>>> machines
>>>>> were the smallest compressors we ever used. Most were 365 or 375 CFM
>>>>> with
>>>>> some 750's and occasionally an 1100 or so.
>>>>>
>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Cecil R Bearden
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 8:29 PM
>>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a 1985 model. I found the operators manual and parts list, all
>>>>> that is available. I also got a download from Sullair factory, they
>>>>> are
>>>>> as helpful as can be for a 30 yr old machine... The Sullair dealer
>>>>> here in OKC seemed to have a tech who new about these, but his advice
>>>>> did not help....Since this is an early model, it does start under load,
>>>>> until it gets to 40psi, then the minimum pressure valve is supposed to
>>>>> take over and bring it up to operating pressure. I really do not see
>>>>> how that works because I had it apart, and it is more like a back
>>>>> pressure ( check) valve in the output line... This one does not have a
>>>>> cylinder on the throttle, it has a diaphram that is connected to the
>>>>> governor and to the butterfly on the intake. The later models have
>>>>> a
>>>>> start unloader valve. I have all new electrical parts and it really
>>>>> does not start as well as it did...
>>>>>
>>>>> Funny thing, I bought a 185 Leroi compressor from the OK DOT. It
>>>>> was
>>>>> listed as diesel, I bought it cheap and never looked at it. We got it
>>>>> home and when I looked under the cover, it was gasoline...............
>>>>> Too Late. I looked at it a today as I was getting desperate, and
>>>>> it
>>>>> is the same compressor as the one I have, but it is a little later as
>>>>> it
>>>>> has the unloader valve on it.... Same engine and looks like the same
>>>>> compressor.. Uses same filters too...
>>>>>
>>>>> I took the carb off the Sullair and could not find anything really
>>>>> wrong
>>>>> with it. It was fairly clean, but the inside was sooted up. The
>>>>> Crankcase vent from the valve cover goes in just above the carb air
>>>>> horn. The engine may be in worse condition than I thought... I have
>>>>> a
>>>>> carb kit ordered for it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The leroi has a key start and I don't have a key. It is a universal
>>>>> switch, but to get in to the back side of the dash panel to replace
>>>>> the switch takes a contortionist with 4 ft arms. I found a few keys to
>>>>> those switches as I bought a lot of old DOT equip when I got this
>>>>> one... I got the flat fixed and moved it to the shade tree, put in a
>>>>> new battery and it cranked!!! The old battery had a date of April 04
>>>>> on it, so it has been sitting for a while....
>>>>>
>>>>> Got some Dr. appts tomorrow, so maybe by tomorrow afternoon I can see
>>>>> if something will run..... This has been the year for breakdowns...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/11/2015 5:37 PM, charlie hill wrote:
>>>>>> Following along with what Bo said about Never Ever putting a body
>>>>>> part on a screw compressor intake and on my similar comments earlier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The screw compressors are basically the same device as the roots
>>>>>> blowers
>>>>>> that are on the old 2 stroke Detroit Diesels and on a lot of race
>>>>>> cars.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> once
>>>>>> heard about a mechanic that leaned across a running detroit with part
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> air intake disassembled. His belly got too close, the blower sucked
>>>>>> his
>>>>>> belly
>>>>>> against it and then in it and eviscerated him, killing him on the
>>>>>> spot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A centrifugal blower is a different story. You can "unload" it by
>>>>>> partially
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> fully blocking the air intake. I have a huge centrifugal blower
>>>>>> powered
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> 5 hp 3 phase motor that is hooked to a dust collector cabinet
>>>>>> (industrial
>>>>>> size).
>>>>>> It has a butterfly on the outlet of the blower and I have to partially
>>>>>> shut
>>>>>> it, unloading
>>>>>> the blower, in order for the 5 hp motor to start and get up to speed
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> only applies to centrifugal blowers. Roots blowers or screw
>>>>>> compressors
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> a totally
>>>>>> different animal and they WILL HURT OR KILL YOU.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bo, I'm not at all familiar with that Mazda powered Sullair but I've
>>>>>> been
>>>>>> around a lot of
>>>>>> Sullair compressors and they do a fine job! I prefer LeRoi
>>>>>> compressors
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> will take a
>>>>>> Sulair with no hesitation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Bo Hinch
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 2:19 PM
>>>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cecil , those were some very nice little compressors and from my past
>>>>>> experience with them , I would first remove the carburetor , look in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> barrel ( engine side ) right next to the butterfly and you should see
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> least three very tiny little holes .Pull a bristle out of a wire brush
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> use it to ream / clean out holes and with carburator apart , blow all
>>>>>> air
>>>>>> passages from inside out with air pressure or carburetor cleaner .
>>>>>> After reassembling carb. , I would remove air intake cover. I think
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> will find it stuck open ( should be closed with little to no air
>>>>>> pressure )
>>>>>> and determine why it is stuck open such as a blown o`ring hanging up
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> whatever . You also have a regulator valve that operates the air
>>>>>> intake
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> Just follow the small line going into the air intake manifold . I
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> also has a diaphram in it that does go bad . Also I disagree with
>>>>>> quote
>>>>>> from your previous email
>>>>>> ((( The engine must start under load until the
>>>>>> compressor reaches 40psi, then some regulation begins.)))
>>>>>> Last but not least , NEVER , NEVER put any part of a human body over
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> compressor air intake .If I can get some junk moved around , I think I
>>>>>> still have a manual on this unit which would be very helpful to you .
>>>>>> Bo Hinch in s/w louisiana
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 8:03 AM, Cecil R Bearden
>>>>>> <crbearden at copper.net>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The cold natured problem seems to be typical of these. The factorey
>>>>>>> says I should have an idle warm up valve, there never was one .....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cecil in OKla
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 8/11/2015 7:18 AM, Doug Tallman wrote:
>>>>>>>> Cecil, It sounds like carburetion issues or a big vacuum leak. I'd
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> you would hear the hiss of a leak that big. Maybe try spraying a
>>>>>>>> little
>>>>>>>> carb cleaner around the manifold and see if it picks up. Doug T
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 8/11/2015 7:09 AM, Cecil R Bearden wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Sullair 185 w/ ford/Mazda 4cyl gas engine. Compressor always has
>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>> cold natured. Had to be completely warmed up before choke could be
>>>>>>>>> shut
>>>>>>>>> off. Open air line valve and engine would die without choke on at
>>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>> half way. Working fine a month ago. Now, Engine tries to start
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> gets up to idle speed but compressor is loading engine and it
>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>> up to operating speed. If compressor could be disconnected from
>>>>>>>>> engine,
>>>>>>>>> it would get up to operating speed. Have replaced fuel pump, and
>>>>>>>>> plug
>>>>>>>>> wires. Spark plug had some surface carbon but not really gunked
>>>>>>>>> up.
>>>>>>>>> took air intake elbow off of compressor and tried to cut off air
>>>>>>>>> intake
>>>>>>>>> to allow engine to start, but it nearly sucked my hand into the
>>>>>>>>> pipe.
>>>>>>>>> In the past distributor,ignition control box, and coil have been
>>>>>>>>> replaced. Have worked on engines gas, propane and diesel for 50
>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>> and this one has me beat...... This is the reason I like Diesel!!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I use this for sandblasting and blowing off the round baler. Right
>>>>>>>>> now,
>>>>>>>>> the baler has some hay lodged between the belts and the rollers on
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> back side and it has the baler bound up. The only way to get this
>>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>> is to use a lot of high pressure air and cut the hay out with the
>>>>>>>>> air.
>>>>>>>>> Or, cut the belts pull them out with the loader and re-splice. I
>>>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>>>> not blow off the baler last time i used it, it was trying to rain
>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>> I put the new bearing in that was causing the fires. The hay
>>>>>>>>> builds
>>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>>> in the back above the top of the bale chamber, and causes the belts
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> stick. Really dry hay is the worst problem...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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