[AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
charlie hill
charliehill at embarqmail.com
Fri Aug 14 06:19:41 PDT 2015
Cecil, have you checked the diaphragm and the vacuum piping
going to it? In the back of my mind I was thinking that problem
had to do with a bad diaphragm but couldn't remember for sure
so I didn't say it.
Charlie
-----Original Message-----
From: Cecil R Bearden
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 7:09 AM
To: Antique tractor email discussion group
Subject: Re: [AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
If these were diesel you could hold open the throttle and it would run.
However with gasoline, The engine has to get ahead of the compressor.
The Leroi has only a pressure regulator that has a line that goes to the
valve in the intake line. I can put a board over the intake and leave
only a small slit open and it will seem to relieve the load some.
This did not seem to help the Sullair. The Sullair has a large diaphram
linked to the governor and to a butterfly valve on the compressor. The
manual on setting it requires the engine to run it up to minimum pressure.
It is a big chore, but it looks like I am going to have to get the front
cover end off of the engine and replace the timing belt. If I have to
spend 4-6 hours to get this open, There is no way I am going to let it
go back together without replacing the belt and idler that costs only
$36........
I have a small cummins in a road sweeper. It was running when we loaded
it and hauled it here. Also have several overhead valve 6 cyl ford
engines in sweepers. If the bell housings are the same, These2.3 liters
may find another home. I cannot help but think a lot of my problems are
the sorry excuse for gasoline we have now. I use only 93 Octane no
ethanol, but it just does not have the power gasoline used to have...
It takes a lot of tiem and trouble, but I could switch them to propane.
I just need to make sure the engines are running well enough to put on
propane. All the mechanics around here who would have known how to
diagnose these are gone...
Cecil in OKla
On 8/14/2015 12:12 AM, charlie hill wrote:
> Cecil, I've seen this happen before on other compressors but
> never had to work on them myself. I knew two people that
> could have told me exactly what is wrong but unfortunately both
> of them died in the last 18 months. From what he wrote
> earlier I think Bo has a good handle on it. Maybe he can help.
> I'll tell you this, it's something in the mechanism that controls the
> pressure relief and the governor. Having never actually worked on
> one of them myself I can't tell you exactly what but I've seen the
> guys tie a piece of wire on the linkage and tie the other end off
> to hold it open (or maybe closed) to make them run.
> Now yours being gas instead of diesel it could be all together different
> in the way it works but somewhere
> there is a mechanical connection that unloads the compressor.
>
> Charlie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cecil R Bearden
> Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 10:21 PM
> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> Subject: Re: [AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
>
> What are the chances of having 2 ford industrial engines on air
> compressors that will not pull the compressor up to pressure. I got he
> Leroi running today, however, One time I got it up to 60PDI and
> holding. However when you cut off the outlet valve and waited for it to
> idle back, it never happened. Now the engine just loads up and maybe
> will run 10psi any more and it dies............ These things are not
> worth a service ticket at a dealership, and trying to find someone like
> me who used to work on this junk is out of the question......
>
> Cecil in Okla
>
>
> On 8/12/2015 11:38 AM, Spencer Yost wrote:
>> My father-in-law bought a Ford Courier(Ford engine not Mazda engine) in
>> 1978. He gave it to me in 2004 or so after he wore it out and beat it
>> up. My son shortly after was towing his boat and had the engine
>> overheat when a radiator hose busted. Didn't hurt the head or gasket,
>> but coked up the oil passages in the overhead cam for the valve levers.
>> A few levers were starved for oil and one wore out enough that it would
>> fall off its post occasionally.
>>
>> I got very fast and good at removing the air cleaner, valve cover,
>> turning
>> the engine, putting the lever back on and reassembling. I think I had it
>> down to 5-10 mins. I finally put a reman-ed head on it because the
>> machine shop wanted more to ream the coke out.
>>
>> Body was nearly rusted out when I sold it about 4-5 years ago. Ran great
>> and had manual choke to smooth out cold running. I kinda miss that truck
>> now.
>>
>> Spencer
>>
>>> On Aug 12, 2015, at 8:40, <rlgoss at twc.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The fortunate thing about the Courier was that it did NOT have an
>>> interference engine in it. I drove one until the timing belt broke, and
>>> found out that no damage could occur inside.
>>>
>>>
>>> Larry
>>> ---- charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Cecil, that old Courier that I drove ran rough as a cob all the time.
>>> It started hard and rattled and shook but it never left me beside the
>>> road. I figured at the time it might be the timing belt on it and
>>> really
>>> hoped it would let go so they would get me something half decent to
>>> drive but it never did in the months I drove it. I don’t like and try
>>> to
>>> avoid any engines with overhead cams particularly if they are
>>> "interference"
>>> engines. I know those engines are very common now and mostly
>>> reliable and good performers but I'm old school enough that I want my
>>> cam shafts gear or gear and chain driven.
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Cecil R Bearden
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 11:03 PM
>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>> Subject: Re: [AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
>>>
>>> Charlie:
>>> I wondered about the timing belt. This compressor will sit for a month
>>> or 3 then get used for many times as much as an hour at a time... It is
>>> used to blow off hay balers, hay swathers, mowers, real dirty work. Have
>>> not sandblasted in many years... I questioned a Ford friend of mine
>>> about maybe the timing belt stuck to the toothed pulley while it sat and
>>> when I started it, it came off and would be out of time.. I assume the
>>> easiest way would be to check the timing at the distributor. Trying to
>>> get to the timing pulleys to view them is at least a 4 hour job.... I
>>> would have to remove the radiator, the top section of the enclosure,
>>> and then the timing cover. I used to do this in about 2 hours, now, it
>>> is a day or two job...
>>>
>>> Cecil in OKla
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The fortunate thing about the Courier was that it did NOT have an
>>> interference engine in it. I drove one until the timing belt broke, and
>>> found out that no damage could occur inside.
>>>
>>>
>>> Larry
>>> ---- charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Cecil, that old Courier that I drove ran rough as a cob all the time.
>>> It started hard and rattled and shook but it never left me beside the
>>> road. I figured at the time it might be the timing belt on it and
>>> really
>>> hoped it would let go so they would get me something half decent to
>>> drive but it never did in the months I drove it. I don’t like and try
>>> to
>>> avoid any engines with overhead cams particularly if they are
>>> "interference"
>>> engines. I know those engines are very common now and mostly
>>> reliable and good performers but I'm old school enough that I want my
>>> cam shafts gear or gear and chain driven.
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Cecil R Bearden
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 11:03 PM
>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>> Subject: Re: [AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
>>>
>>> Charlie:
>>> I wondered about the timing belt. This compressor will sit for a month
>>> or 3 then get used for many times as much as an hour at a time... It is
>>> used to blow off hay balers, hay swathers, mowers, real dirty work. Have
>>> not sandblasted in many years... I questioned a Ford friend of mine
>>> about maybe the timing belt stuck to the toothed pulley while it sat and
>>> when I started it, it came off and would be out of time.. I assume the
>>> easiest way would be to check the timing at the distributor. Trying to
>>> get to the timing pulleys to view them is at least a 4 hour job.... I
>>> would have to remove the radiator, the top section of the enclosure,
>>> and then the timing cover. I used to do this in about 2 hours, now, it
>>> is a day or two job...
>>>
>>> Cecil in OKla
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 8/11/2015 9:48 PM, charlie hill wrote:
>>>> Cecil, I wouldn't doubt that Sullair and Leroi are the same.
>>>> It could well be. As I think about it, my preference for Leroi
>>>> probably
>>>> has more to do with what was available to us from a local dealer that
>>>> we trusted and dealer support than anything else. Back in the late
>>>> 70's to early 80's we had an Atlas Copco compressor with an air cooled
>>>> Deutz diesel. it was a real workhorse but over the years we had to
>>>> have
>>>> the air end (screw compressor) rebuilt a couple of times. 185 CFM
>>>> machines
>>>> were the smallest compressors we ever used. Most were 365 or 375 CFM
>>>> with
>>>> some 750's and occasionally an 1100 or so.
>>>>
>>>> Charlie
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Cecil R Bearden
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 8:29 PM
>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
>>>>
>>>> This is a 1985 model. I found the operators manual and parts list, all
>>>> that is available. I also got a download from Sullair factory, they
>>>> are
>>>> as helpful as can be for a 30 yr old machine... The Sullair dealer
>>>> here in OKC seemed to have a tech who new about these, but his advice
>>>> did not help....Since this is an early model, it does start under load,
>>>> until it gets to 40psi, then the minimum pressure valve is supposed to
>>>> take over and bring it up to operating pressure. I really do not see
>>>> how that works because I had it apart, and it is more like a back
>>>> pressure ( check) valve in the output line... This one does not have a
>>>> cylinder on the throttle, it has a diaphram that is connected to the
>>>> governor and to the butterfly on the intake. The later models have
>>>> a
>>>> start unloader valve. I have all new electrical parts and it really
>>>> does not start as well as it did...
>>>>
>>>> Funny thing, I bought a 185 Leroi compressor from the OK DOT. It
>>>> was
>>>> listed as diesel, I bought it cheap and never looked at it. We got it
>>>> home and when I looked under the cover, it was gasoline...............
>>>> Too Late. I looked at it a today as I was getting desperate, and
>>>> it
>>>> is the same compressor as the one I have, but it is a little later as
>>>> it
>>>> has the unloader valve on it.... Same engine and looks like the same
>>>> compressor.. Uses same filters too...
>>>>
>>>> I took the carb off the Sullair and could not find anything really
>>>> wrong
>>>> with it. It was fairly clean, but the inside was sooted up. The
>>>> Crankcase vent from the valve cover goes in just above the carb air
>>>> horn. The engine may be in worse condition than I thought... I have
>>>> a
>>>> carb kit ordered for it.
>>>>
>>>> The leroi has a key start and I don't have a key. It is a universal
>>>> switch, but to get in to the back side of the dash panel to replace
>>>> the switch takes a contortionist with 4 ft arms. I found a few keys to
>>>> those switches as I bought a lot of old DOT equip when I got this
>>>> one... I got the flat fixed and moved it to the shade tree, put in a
>>>> new battery and it cranked!!! The old battery had a date of April 04
>>>> on it, so it has been sitting for a while....
>>>>
>>>> Got some Dr. appts tomorrow, so maybe by tomorrow afternoon I can see
>>>> if something will run..... This has been the year for breakdowns...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/11/2015 5:37 PM, charlie hill wrote:
>>>>> Following along with what Bo said about Never Ever putting a body
>>>>> part on a screw compressor intake and on my similar comments earlier.
>>>>>
>>>>> The screw compressors are basically the same device as the roots
>>>>> blowers
>>>>> that are on the old 2 stroke Detroit Diesels and on a lot of race
>>>>> cars.
>>>>> I
>>>>> once
>>>>> heard about a mechanic that leaned across a running detroit with part
>>>>> of
>>>>> the
>>>>> air intake disassembled. His belly got too close, the blower sucked
>>>>> his
>>>>> belly
>>>>> against it and then in it and eviscerated him, killing him on the
>>>>> spot.
>>>>>
>>>>> A centrifugal blower is a different story. You can "unload" it by
>>>>> partially
>>>>> or
>>>>> fully blocking the air intake. I have a huge centrifugal blower
>>>>> powered
>>>>> by
>>>>> a
>>>>> 5 hp 3 phase motor that is hooked to a dust collector cabinet
>>>>> (industrial
>>>>> size).
>>>>> It has a butterfly on the outlet of the blower and I have to partially
>>>>> shut
>>>>> it, unloading
>>>>> the blower, in order for the 5 hp motor to start and get up to speed
>>>>> but
>>>>> that
>>>>> only applies to centrifugal blowers. Roots blowers or screw
>>>>> compressors
>>>>> are
>>>>> a totally
>>>>> different animal and they WILL HURT OR KILL YOU.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bo, I'm not at all familiar with that Mazda powered Sullair but I've
>>>>> been
>>>>> around a lot of
>>>>> Sullair compressors and they do a fine job! I prefer LeRoi
>>>>> compressors
>>>>> but
>>>>> will take a
>>>>> Sulair with no hesitation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Bo Hinch
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 2:19 PM
>>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] Need help troubleshooting engine/compressor
>>>>>
>>>>> Cecil , those were some very nice little compressors and from my past
>>>>> experience with them , I would first remove the carburetor , look in
>>>>> the
>>>>> barrel ( engine side ) right next to the butterfly and you should see
>>>>> at
>>>>> least three very tiny little holes .Pull a bristle out of a wire brush
>>>>> and
>>>>> use it to ream / clean out holes and with carburator apart , blow all
>>>>> air
>>>>> passages from inside out with air pressure or carburetor cleaner .
>>>>> After reassembling carb. , I would remove air intake cover. I think
>>>>> you
>>>>> will find it stuck open ( should be closed with little to no air
>>>>> pressure )
>>>>> and determine why it is stuck open such as a blown o`ring hanging up
>>>>> or
>>>>> whatever . You also have a regulator valve that operates the air
>>>>> intake
>>>>> .
>>>>> Just follow the small line going into the air intake manifold . I
>>>>> think
>>>>> it
>>>>> also has a diaphram in it that does go bad . Also I disagree with
>>>>> quote
>>>>> from your previous email
>>>>> ((( The engine must start under load until the
>>>>> compressor reaches 40psi, then some regulation begins.)))
>>>>> Last but not least , NEVER , NEVER put any part of a human body over
>>>>> the
>>>>> compressor air intake .If I can get some junk moved around , I think I
>>>>> still have a manual on this unit which would be very helpful to you .
>>>>> Bo Hinch in s/w louisiana
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 8:03 AM, Cecil R Bearden
>>>>> <crbearden at copper.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The cold natured problem seems to be typical of these. The factorey
>>>>>> says I should have an idle warm up valve, there never was one .....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cecil in OKla
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/11/2015 7:18 AM, Doug Tallman wrote:
>>>>>>> Cecil, It sounds like carburetion issues or a big vacuum leak. I'd
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> you would hear the hiss of a leak that big. Maybe try spraying a
>>>>>>> little
>>>>>>> carb cleaner around the manifold and see if it picks up. Doug T
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 8/11/2015 7:09 AM, Cecil R Bearden wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sullair 185 w/ ford/Mazda 4cyl gas engine. Compressor always has
>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>> cold natured. Had to be completely warmed up before choke could be
>>>>>>>> shut
>>>>>>>> off. Open air line valve and engine would die without choke on at
>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>> half way. Working fine a month ago. Now, Engine tries to start
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> gets up to idle speed but compressor is loading engine and it
>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>> up to operating speed. If compressor could be disconnected from
>>>>>>>> engine,
>>>>>>>> it would get up to operating speed. Have replaced fuel pump, and
>>>>>>>> plug
>>>>>>>> wires. Spark plug had some surface carbon but not really gunked
>>>>>>>> up.
>>>>>>>> took air intake elbow off of compressor and tried to cut off air
>>>>>>>> intake
>>>>>>>> to allow engine to start, but it nearly sucked my hand into the
>>>>>>>> pipe.
>>>>>>>> In the past distributor,ignition control box, and coil have been
>>>>>>>> replaced. Have worked on engines gas, propane and diesel for 50
>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>> and this one has me beat...... This is the reason I like Diesel!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I use this for sandblasting and blowing off the round baler. Right
>>>>>>>> now,
>>>>>>>> the baler has some hay lodged between the belts and the rollers on
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> back side and it has the baler bound up. The only way to get this
>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>> is to use a lot of high pressure air and cut the hay out with the
>>>>>>>> air.
>>>>>>>> Or, cut the belts pull them out with the loader and re-splice. I
>>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>>> not blow off the baler last time i used it, it was trying to rain
>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>> I put the new bearing in that was causing the fires. The hay
>>>>>>>> builds
>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>> in the back above the top of the bale chamber, and causes the belts
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> stick. Really dry hay is the worst problem...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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