[AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis

Wed Feb 11 06:58:08 PST 2009

On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 9:34 AM,  <hank at millerfarm.com> wrote:
>
> Yes I work for OTC, as such I have to toe the line.   I hope you are
> not surprised - if not you need a rude awakening as to how the real
> world works soon (until then please stay out of voting booths or
> anyplace else where you make important decisions).

Um, I said I'd try to remain civil.  Perhaps you don't agree with me
there?  Would you have said the above straight to my face?

> ...As for is it 80% or 50% that the computer knows?  Well I don't really
> know.  I'm guessing.

Thank you for clarifying where your numbers are coming from.

>...  However when looking at the guess don't forget
> that if the computer tells you the right part to replace you are
> looking at 1 hour of work, most of which is waiting for the
> replacement part to arrive, and not wrench time.   If the computer
> doesn't know you are looking at hours of diagnostics, and several
> visits.

I gather from this that the consumer, who obviously wants his/her car
fixed for the absolute minimum of fuss and expense, should be rooting
for the smartest computer and the cheapest technician.  There's
definitely some reality in that, but my personal opinion is that it's
a slippery slope.  What's at the bottom of that slope?  Brain-dead
parts changers are working on your car.  Does anyone REALLY want that?

> Still at the end of the day, tools are just tools.   They are getting
> better all the time, but still just tools, and still limited to what
> they can do.  A smart person running the tool is still critical for
> many problems.

That's rational.

> Someone mentioned a cheap OBDII scanner that read some data like O2
> sensors.  I forget what exactly OBDII does, but it isn't everything.
> If a problem won't effect emissions, then the problem isn't in OBDII,
> even though the engine may run badly.

I might be misunderstanding you, but I find it disturbing that you
write scanner software for a living and yet "forget what exactly OBDII
does".

And you'd be hard-pressed to provide an example of a badly running
engine that doesn't have higher emissions.

>...   All cars have information that
> cannot be accessed by OBDII, and a good tech will need that
> information.  A few good engineers could make the best ever OBDII
> scanner in less than a year, but they won't be able to sell it for
> more than $200 (if that much) because it is just OBDII and there is a
> lot of competition.  Still the ease of making such tools means that
> many companies do that.
>
> If you want to make something like the Genisys or a snap-on you will
> need a lot more effort.   We need to handle every model made, one at a
> time, and many manufactures will change details in the middle of the
> year, not to mention all the different engines which could be on the
> car.  Often engines that are mechanically identical will have
> different computers on models.  This is why OTC and Snap-on charges a
> lot more money, and few companies try and get into that market.

That is perfectly clear to me, and I totally agree.

> I hope this is clear.  I'm not feeling the best today, so I'm less
> sure than normal that I'm explaining things correctly.

Sorry to hear you aren't feeling well.

Steve O.

>
> Quoting "Stephen Offiler" <soffiler at gmail.com>:
>
>> Charlie, you've basically got it right.  Modern aftermarket scanners
>> such as the Genisys are trying to provide enhanced functionality to
>> improve technician productivity, incorporating automated test
>> routines, troubleshooting assistance, etc.  BUT BUT BUT at the end of
>> the day they are still machines that read data and it is still largely
>> up to the technician to make sense of that data relative to the
>> problems they are trying to repair.  I'm not completely sure I
>> understand Henry's first paragraph but it seems that he works for OTC,
>> maker of the Genisys (and Pegisys) scan tools.   Perhaps the comments
>> in his first paragraph indicate he's toeing his company line, because
>> you can sell more scanners if you can convince people they do all the
>> work for you.
>>
>>
>> Steve O.
>> (who is also professionally involved in the auto repair industry)
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 4:56 PM, charliehill
>> <charliehill at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>>> Henry,  the computer can tell you that a sensor is out of range and that a
>>> control can not pull it back into range.  The computer can't tell you if
>>> it's a bad sensor, a bad control, a vacuum leak or a burned valve.  If it
>>> can I'd love to hear you elaborate on how?
>>>
>>> I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I just want to understand.  Also, I'd
>>> like to know more about your diagnostic equipment.
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Henry Miller" <hank at millerfarm.com>
>>> To: <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 4:30 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis
>>>
>>>
>>>> As the maker of computer diagnostics (otc genisys), the computer knows
>>>> about 80%, and the parts replacer just replaces that part (cheaper than
>>>> fixing it).  There is no real need for brains, so leave them at the door.
>>>>
>>>> That other 20%...  Well it is still a 4 cycle engine, and everthing from a
>>>> 1887 engine appies, plus a bunch of new things like EGR.  Some times
>>>> understanding hot tube ignition or points helps solve problems even on
>>>> modern distributorless ignition systems.  The most important part is
>>>> problem solving skills combined with an understanding of how things work.
>>>> (Expirence is helpful too)  Once you have that the computer can tell you
>>>> lots of interesting things, but if you don't know what it means knowing
>>>> the data won't help.
>>>>
>>>> Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 2:51 PM, yestergears at intrstar.net
>>>>> <yestergears at intrstar.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Talking with the dealer, he told me they are looking for computer
>>>>>> operators moreso than mechanics these days.... Amazing... He said
>>>>>> the computer told them what to replace repair now.  Then all he needed
>>>>>> was a parts changer.
>>>>>
>>>>> I say bullcrap.  That dealer is sadly mistaken, and he will be bitten
>>>>> by his own perception that all he needs is a "parts changer".  This
>>>>> perception is rampant in the automotive world these days too, although
>>>>> most dealers and independent shops know the real score, and it's the
>>>>> consumer who thinks the computer does all the real work and some
>>>>> minimum-wage drone hangs the parts.  The fact is, as systems become
>>>>> more complex, so do the repairs, and even higher-skilled technicians
>>>>> are required.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve O.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> AT mailing list
>>>>> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>
>>>
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