[AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis

Wed Feb 11 06:54:13 PST 2009

Hank,  I think you make your point well.  The code scan and diagnostic tools 
are just that, tools.  You certainly would have a hard time getting by 
without them now days when a minor problem that in years gone by would never 
be known can now cause you to fail an emmissions test and force your vehicle 
to be parked.   They are good tools no doubt but just like any other tool 
someone has to know how to properly use it.

Good discussion.

Charlie
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <hank at millerfarm.com>
To: <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis

>
> Yes I work for OTC, as such I have to toe the line.   I hope you are
> not surprised - if not you need a rude awakening as to how the real
> world works soon (until then please stay out of voting booths or
> anyplace else where you make important decisions).  That is also why I
> won't comment on (someone else's complaint) about email.  I don't know
> the answer and couldn't comment if I did.  If I see the right person
> to ask I will, but I only know my area, which is the program.
>
> As for is it 80% or 50% that the computer knows?  Well I don't really
> know.  I'm guessing.  However when looking at the guess don't forget
> that if the computer tells you the right part to replace you are
> looking at 1 hour of work, most of which is waiting for the
> replacement part to arrive, and not wrench time.   If the computer
> doesn't know you are looking at hours of diagnostics, and several
> visits.   The better mechanics will see more of these problems as well
> because the parts replacers tend to work at cheaper chain places, so
> the typical cheapskate will go there first.  (Most of the chains have
> a bunch or parts replacers and then on really good mechanic for the
> hard problem, if your problem gets to their good mechanic you should
> be fine, but getting it there...)  So the perspective tends to be
> thrown off because if the computer doesn't know you spend a lot more
> time, and often a lot more shops, on the problem.
>
> Still at the end of the day, tools are just tools.   They are getting
> better all the time, but still just tools, and still limited to what
> they can do.  A smart person running the tool is still critical for
> many problems.
>
> Someone mentioned a cheap OBDII scanner that read some data like O2
> sensors.  I forget what exactly OBDII does, but it isn't everything.
> If a problem won't effect emissions, then the problem isn't in OBDII,
> even though the engine may run badly.   All cars have information that
> cannot be accessed by OBDII, and a good tech will need that
> information.  A few good engineers could make the best ever OBDII
> scanner in less than a year, but they won't be able to sell it for
> more than $200 (if that much) because it is just OBDII and there is a
> lot of competition.  Still the ease of making such tools means that
> many companies do that.
>
> If you want to make something like the Genisys or a snap-on you will
> need a lot more effort.   We need to handle every model made, one at a
> time, and many manufactures will change details in the middle of the
> year, not to mention all the different engines which could be on the
> car.  Often engines that are mechanically identical will have
> different computers on models.  This is why OTC and Snap-on charges a
> lot more money, and few companies try and get into that market.
>
> I hope this is clear.  I'm not feeling the best today, so I'm less
> sure than normal that I'm explaining things correctly.
>
> Quoting "Stephen Offiler" <soffiler at gmail.com>:
>
>> Charlie, you've basically got it right.  Modern aftermarket scanners
>> such as the Genisys are trying to provide enhanced functionality to
>> improve technician productivity, incorporating automated test
>> routines, troubleshooting assistance, etc.  BUT BUT BUT at the end of
>> the day they are still machines that read data and it is still largely
>> up to the technician to make sense of that data relative to the
>> problems they are trying to repair.  I'm not completely sure I
>> understand Henry's first paragraph but it seems that he works for OTC,
>> maker of the Genisys (and Pegisys) scan tools.   Perhaps the comments
>> in his first paragraph indicate he's toeing his company line, because
>> you can sell more scanners if you can convince people they do all the
>> work for you.
>>
>>
>> Steve O.
>> (who is also professionally involved in the auto repair industry)
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 4:56 PM, charliehill
>> <charliehill at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>>> Henry,  the computer can tell you that a sensor is out of range and that 
>>> a
>>> control can not pull it back into range.  The computer can't tell you if
>>> it's a bad sensor, a bad control, a vacuum leak or a burned valve.  If 
>>> it
>>> can I'd love to hear you elaborate on how?
>>>
>>> I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I just want to understand.  Also, 
>>> I'd
>>> like to know more about your diagnostic equipment.
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Henry Miller" <hank at millerfarm.com>
>>> To: <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 4:30 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis
>>>
>>>
>>>> As the maker of computer diagnostics (otc genisys), the computer knows
>>>> about 80%, and the parts replacer just replaces that part (cheaper than
>>>> fixing it).  There is no real need for brains, so leave them at the 
>>>> door.
>>>>
>>>> That other 20%...  Well it is still a 4 cycle engine, and everthing 
>>>> from a
>>>> 1887 engine appies, plus a bunch of new things like EGR.  Some times
>>>> understanding hot tube ignition or points helps solve problems even on
>>>> modern distributorless ignition systems.  The most important part is
>>>> problem solving skills combined with an understanding of how things 
>>>> work.
>>>> (Expirence is helpful too)  Once you have that the computer can tell 
>>>> you
>>>> lots of interesting things, but if you don't know what it means knowing
>>>> the data won't help.
>>>>
>>>> Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 2:51 PM, yestergears at intrstar.net
>>>>> <yestergears at intrstar.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Talking with the dealer, he told me they are looking for computer
>>>>>> operators moreso than mechanics these days.... Amazing... He said
>>>>>> the computer told them what to replace repair now.  Then all he 
>>>>>> needed
>>>>>> was a parts changer.
>>>>>
>>>>> I say bullcrap.  That dealer is sadly mistaken, and he will be bitten
>>>>> by his own perception that all he needs is a "parts changer".  This
>>>>> perception is rampant in the automotive world these days too, although
>>>>> most dealers and independent shops know the real score, and it's the
>>>>> consumer who thinks the computer does all the real work and some
>>>>> minimum-wage drone hangs the parts.  The fact is, as systems become
>>>>> more complex, so do the repairs, and even higher-skilled technicians
>>>>> are required.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve O.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> AT mailing list
>>>>> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>
>>>
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