[AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis
charliehill
charliehill at embarqmail.com
Tue Feb 10 17:55:05 PST 2009
Henry I've got a relatively low cost scan tool that runs on my laptop
computer. Mine will read all the codes and give me things like oxygen
sensor voltage readings, etc. What mine won't do is let me send commands to
the engine but it will show me cyl misfires and the like.
The problem I have with the shops is that they start off by replacing the
sensor, charging me for that and sending me down the road. When I go back
the next day and tell them I still have the problem they don't offer to
refund the money for the sensor they then replace the control and charge me
for that. A couple of trips and a few hundred dollars later they get around
to finding the vacuum leak or bad ground. I'm just speaking in general
terms but you get the idea.
Here is an example that is not really computer related but it'll drive the
point home. My 90 year old mother recently took her 02 Pontiac to the
Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, GMC truck dealer here in town. The AC sometimes
wouldn't work. They told here the fan motor was bad and replaced it.
Charged her a couple of hundred bucks. A few days later she was back down
there with the same problem. They checked it, let her sit there in the
waiting room half the day (for the second time in a week) and replaced the
switch. They came out and apologized. Told her it was a bad switch all
along and they would make up for it by not charging her for the switch. Now
you tell me who came out on that deal? Of course she didn't bother to
tell me about it until a month later. The owners of that dealership are
friends of mine and I could have helper her out if she'd told me at the
time. Well maybe not. This is the same dealer who I asked to check for the
source of some condensation in the instument panel of my Buick LeSabre.
When I asked the service writer if they found the source of the condensation
he bowed up and said "THAT WASN'T CONDENSATION. THAT WAS MOISTURE". Yep
that's what he said. Exact words. I'll never forget it. The car was in
the shop because the air conditioning smelled like dirty sweat socks and was
leaking water in the car. The "condensation" was just part of the problem
that I wanted them to fix. They worked on that 3 times under warranty. The
last time they the service manager told me, with a straight face, that there
was a bulletin out on it and that they were putting a "delay relay" on the
AC fan motor so the fan would run after the car was shut off and dry out the
duct. NO I'm not making this up. They actually put a little box under the
hood with some wires running out of it into the heater/AC duct under the
hood. I took it off myself later and still have it. There's nothing in the
box. After a while it ceased to be funny so I drove the car over a ditch so
I could crawl under it and fixed what I knew was wrong with it to begin
with. The rubber drain nipple in the bottom of the duct was stopped up.
Well actually it had gotten pushed in like a belly button instead of hanging
down under the car like it should.
This dealership runs a TV add where they brag about their wonderful service
dept that supposedly has about 40% of the ASCE Master Technicians in the
whole state of NC right here in this little town of 30,000.
Now tell me how a service dept that can't solve an A/C problem that has been
around for 30 years and any mechanic should find is going to diagnose an
engine problem with a computer? They just throw parts at them until the
problem goes away and charge the customer for it.
I'm not kicking computer controls on cars or your equipment and I actually
think computer cars are much better than the old cars were but until they
teach the techs something it's all a waste.
Charlie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Henry Miller" <hank at millerfarm.com>
To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis
> Computer programmers are smarter than you are giving us credit for. (Not
> that we are perfect) We never consider the sensors in isolation, but the
> system as a whole. If a sensor is bad only that one sensor will give a
> bad reading, while if a control is bad several sensors will give a bad
> reading. Also we can watch that sensor 10 times per revolution (or more)
> if we need to, while no human can read it that fast.
>
> Of course we can't tell a bad connection from a bad sensor (but some
> sensors are now digital so a bad connection cannot exist). That is just
> one of the many problems that fall into the 20% that you need a good tech
> for. Most problems are simple replace the sensor. Oxygon sensors are
> notarious for failing (but getting better), a few other common failures
> and 80% replace what the computer says is a good estimate.
>
> Yes there is a lot we can't diagnose, but the common failures have had a
> lot of effort into making the diagnosis easy so the "stupid parts
> replacer" does the right thing.
>
> Note that no tool you plug in does much diagnosys. The computer on the
> car is doing this, and we just ask for details. Details can be things
> like trouble codes, or the exact voltage the left o2 sensor is sending.
> Some of the better tools can also command some thing (The egr valve is a
> common one - it normally opens only on the hiway which makes diagnosys
> hard in the shop). ALL tools are limited by what the computer in the car
> was programed to do at the factory. Anything the factory decided not to
> allow cannot be done by any tool. (a chip could change that, but we won't
> go there)
>
> As for tools, each manufacturer has a tool that their dealers use. These
> run from $8000-$40000, generally on the mid or high end of that range.
> They only cover that manufacturer, and often only a few modles years, but
> it is the gold standard for what it does. A large part of my job is
> figguring out what their tool is really doing (they tell us but often what
> they tell us is wrong)
>
> Independants generally use either snap-on or otc tools (I work for otc).
> I don't know about snapon, but we oem our tools to several big names so
> your mechanic might use our tool by a different name. I think our tools
> start at $3000, but a good mechanic will probably have $10000 after all
> the adaptor cables (for pre 1996 cars) is included. There is also the
> yearly update fee ($300-$900 depending on what kit they get)
>
> Sometimes a speciality shop will get other tools (many buy the OEM tool),
> and there are other companies trying to get into the market, but snapon
> and otc are the big players for independant shops.
>
> You can also buy OBDII readers at the auto parts stores for $50-150, they
> are limited to OBDII codes. This will still solve 70% of problems (the
> same common problems that all cars have), but there isn't as much detail
> so you do more blind parts replacing.
>
> Most autoparts stores will read the codes for you (and if you are going to
> a store where they know something they can give suggestions that are
> helpful), so I don't think buying a reader is worth it for more people.
> If you are considering this route you should search online first. There
> are communities making free tools (laptop and adaptor cable required) that
> for the one car they have is as good as anything (and worthless for
> anything else).
>
> Note that the dollar values I gave are educated guesses. I don't know the
> true costs for any tool and couldn't tell you if I did.
>
> charliehill <charliehill at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Henry, the computer can tell you that a sensor is out of range and that a
>>control can not pull it back into range. The computer can't tell you if
>>it's a bad sensor, a bad control, a vacuum leak or a burned valve. If it
>>can I'd love to hear you elaborate on how?
>>
>>I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just want to understand. Also, I'd
>>like to know more about your diagnostic equipment.
>>
>>Charlie
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Henry Miller" <hank at millerfarm.com>
>>To: <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 4:30 PM
>>Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis
>>
>>
>>> As the maker of computer diagnostics (otc genisys), the computer knows
>>> about 80%, and the parts replacer just replaces that part (cheaper than
>>> fixing it). There is no real need for brains, so leave them at the
>>> door.
>>>
>>> That other 20%... Well it is still a 4 cycle engine, and everthing from
>>> a
>>> 1887 engine appies, plus a bunch of new things like EGR. Some times
>>> understanding hot tube ignition or points helps solve problems even on
>>> modern distributorless ignition systems. The most important part is
>>> problem solving skills combined with an understanding of how things
>>> work.
>>> (Expirence is helpful too) Once you have that the computer can tell you
>>> lots of interesting things, but if you don't know what it means knowing
>>> the data won't help.
>>>
>>> Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 2:51 PM, yestergears at intrstar.net
>>>><yestergears at intrstar.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Talking with the dealer, he told me they are looking for computer
>>>>> operators moreso than mechanics these days.... Amazing... He said
>>>>> the computer told them what to replace repair now. Then all he needed
>>>>> was a parts changer.
>>>>
>>>>I say bullcrap. That dealer is sadly mistaken, and he will be bitten
>>>>by his own perception that all he needs is a "parts changer". This
>>>>perception is rampant in the automotive world these days too, although
>>>>most dealers and independent shops know the real score, and it's the
>>>>consumer who thinks the computer does all the real work and some
>>>>minimum-wage drone hangs the parts. The fact is, as systems become
>>>>more complex, so do the repairs, and even higher-skilled technicians
>>>>are required.
>>>>
>>>>Steve O.
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>AT mailing list
>>>>http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9. Please excuse my brevity.
>>
>>
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>
> --
> Sent from my Android phone with K-9. Please excuse my brevity.
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