[AT] While we're on the subject of generators

Tue Oct 7 12:59:56 PDT 2008

I hope you don't think that made it better.  grins.

Charlie
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen Offiler" <soffiler at gmail.com>
To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [AT] While we're on the subject of generators

> On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:24 AM, charlie hill
> <charliehill at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Steve that is the confusing part of it to me.  Knowing that the neutral
>> carries current how can it be tied to the ground without 1) grounding out
>> the circuit the neutral is carring current for...
>
> Grounding out, you say?  Neutral should be at 0 volts.  I suppose I
> can say it's SUPPOSED to be grounded out. You make sure it's there, at
> 0 volts, by connecting it to Earth.  The Hot lead swings positive and
> negative with respect to the Neutral.  Electricity is all relative.
> Because it's relative,  you have to give it a solid, known reference
> by tying it down (at ONE point only!) to Earth.
>
>>... or 2) energizing the ground
>> circuit?
>
> Energizing, you say?  We've tied both "neutral" and "ground" (just
> names) to Earth (the real deal).  So they are now both at 0 volts.
> Neutral has current, yes, but at 0 volts it has no energy (amps times
> volts equals watts).
>
>
>> To me it's like hooking your potable water and grey water piping together
>> and saying the potable water is not contaminated.  Heck with the plumbing
>> example you could at least put a check valve/backflow preventer in the
>> circuit.  I've never seen a diode between the neutral and the ground in a
>> 200 AMP panel.  I know the example is rediculous.  I'm just trying to 
>> point
>> out how confusing it is to me.
>>
>> Charlie
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Stephen Offiler" <soffiler at gmail.com>
>> To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" 
>> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 10:06 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AT] While we're on the subject of generators
>>
>>
>>> It goes something like this:  the bare copper ground wires that
>>> connect to the third prong of US receptacles are there specifically to
>>> protect the metal chassis of appliances.  This grounding system has
>>> two basic requirements:  one, it must tie to earth to ensure it
>>> remains at 0 volts potential; and two, it must not normally carry any
>>> current.
>>>
>>> The neutral conductor in an AC system, on the other hand, shares only
>>> one of those two requirements.  It too must remain at 0 volts
>>> potential.  Since the neutrual and ground share this potential, they
>>> can be (should be...must be) tied together.  HOWEVER.  The big
>>> difference is that the neutral conductor normally carries current and
>>> the ground does not.  If you were to tie neutral and ground together
>>> in multiple places, that puts them wired in parallel and they'll
>>> naturally share current loads.  BAD.  By tying them together at one
>>> and only one point, you are ensured they have the same potential
>>> (which is zero volts once you connect to the stakes in the ground) and
>>> you are ensured you are not creating parallel current paths.
>>>
>>> Steve O.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 8:26 PM, charlie hill 
>>> <charliehill at embarqmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> I'm no electrician.  Have trouble dealing with stuff I can't see.  LOL.
>>>> This whole thing with  grounds and neutrals just doesn't make sense to
>>>> me.
>>>> It seems to me like 120V should be 1 phase and a neutral, 240V should 
>>>> be
>>>> both phases and a neutral and the grounds for any or all of them should
>>>> be
>>>> isolated from the rest of the system.  I don't even want to think about 
>>>> 3
>>>> phase.
>>>>
>>>> This is one of the great mysteries of my life.  I guess I should go to
>>>> school on it or at least buy some books or something and learn to make
>>>> sense
>>>> of it all.  I'm not one bit more confused by quantum mechanics and 
>>>> string
>>>> theory than I am by house wiring.  When it comes to any of the above 
>>>> I'm
>>>> like a dog chasing an automobile.  If he ever catches it he won't be 
>>>> able
>>>> to
>>>> drive it.  I can at least wire up simple stuff but I don't understand 
>>>> why
>>>> it
>>>> works like it does.
>>>>
>>>> Charlie
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Larry Goss" <rlgoss at insightbb.com>
>>>> To: "Antique tractor email discussion group"
>>>> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 8:09 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] While we're on the subject of generators
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Exactly, Bruce.  As a result, when I wired my new shop, I hooked them
>>>>> all
>>>>> together on the same buss.  That was a No-No, and the inspector told 
>>>>> me
>>>>> so.  I complained that I looked for a box that had the separate buss 
>>>>> in
>>>>> it
>>>>> and there weren't any.  He then proceeded to tell me the busses are in 
>>>>> a
>>>>> little box on the shelf with a separate price tag on them.  So I
>>>>> searched
>>>>> at Home Depot and found the things hidden on a shelf about waist high,
>>>>> bought one, installed it with the grounding screw I had used for
>>>>> something
>>>>> else, and went to the trouble of separating all the neutrals from the
>>>>> grounds so I could hook them all back up together again.  It's a Royal
>>>>> Pain, but that's the way the code is written.
>>>>>
>>>>> Larry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Bruce Moden <brucemoden at yahoo.com>
>>>>> Date: Monday, October 6, 2008 14:43
>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] While we're on the subject of generators
>>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>>> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Note:
>>>>>> In other electrical applications "neutral' is synonymous with
>>>>>> "ground" if you check your panel box you will note that all the
>>>>>> white wires (neutral) in your household wiring go to a bar of
>>>>>> similar wires and all the ground wires go to a bar for bare
>>>>>> copper (ground) wires and if you check further the two are
>>>>>> connected.  This has been my experience over the years- but
>>>>>> is free information and may be worth the price paid!
>>>>>> Pharmr
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On Mon, 10/6/08, Cecil Bearden <crbearden at copper.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > From: Cecil Bearden <crbearden at copper.net>
>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [AT] While we're on the subject of generators
>>>>>> > To: "Antique tractor email discussion group"
>>>>>> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>>>>> > Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 7:50 AM
>>>>>> > When you have it running, I am connect yourvoltmeter from
>>>>>> > each hot leg
>>>>>> > to the common.  Then connect from this to the generator
>>>>>> > frame.  If there
>>>>>> > is no voltage, then this is the neutral for sure.  The
>>>>>> > common should be
>>>>>> > your neutral.  I say should be as I have had some
>>>>>> > interesting things
>>>>>> > happen.  ost a message on the old generators forum at
>>>>>> > smokstak.com  ther
>>>>>> > are some Onan technicians there who work in the areas that
>>>>>> > have to run
>>>>>> > on generators all the time....
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Cecil in OKla
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Chris C wrote:
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > >   Can anyone here help me out with an older Onan
>>>>>> > Generator?  I have a 12KW DJC generator that I am wiring to
>>>>>> > my panel as a backup generator.  I know that the generator
>>>>>> > need to get neutral bonded to get along with the GFI's
>>>>>> > in the house,  but I can't find a wiring diagram to tell
>>>>>> > me for sure what the neutral is.  And I have found the local
>>>>>> > Onan folks completely useless as they seem to believe that I
>>>>>> > will sue them if things go bad..  Anyone have some Onan
>>>>>> > info?
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > >           Chris
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > _______________________________________________
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