[AT] energy

[soffiler at ct.metrocast.net]

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "charlie hill" <chill8 at suddenlink.net>
Subject: Re: [AT] energy
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 14:51:01 -0800

>Steve,  as I said earlier, I had this same discussion last
>week with an oil  jobber who lives with these issues every
>day... I  was surprised last week when he told me that
>it takes more energy to produce  gasoline than you get back
>from it but I have no reason to doubt him.  

Hi Charlie:  I don't quite know how to address this.  I take
as fact that the energy returned over energy input is 5:1
for gasoline (where the arguements for and against ethanol
are teeter-tottering either side of 1:1).  Your acquaintance
is saying gasoline is near 1:1?  He's off by over half an
order of magnitude i.e. not even in the ballpark.  Makes me
wonder if something is getting lost in translation.

>He also thinks that ethanol and bio is going to fly long
>term.  He says the  paper companies are working on making
>ethanol from wood chips and still  using the chips in their
>production process.  I suspect not to make paper  but to
>fuel their power houses.  

Once you extract the energy from wood chips and turn it into
ethanol, I figure whatever remains isn't going to burn very
well.  You took the energy out, remember?

>I'm not taking a position here other than to say that I
>don't think CO2 is a  problem and that a lot of the hype
>over carbon fuels is bunk. 

Agreed!

 Other than  that I'm just
>curious about the process.  It's a known fact that in 
>generations gone by things that were dismissed as
>impossible are now in  every day use.  As a professor told
>us in class one day, Engineering is  materials limited. 
>Meaning given the right materials (or technologies) 
>anything is possible (at some price).

That's a bit optimistic.  Absolutely, SOME things dismissed
as impossible are now in everyday use.  Agreed.   Where you
need to watch your step is in violations of the first and
second laws of thermodynamics, as George has pointed out. 
You still can't do that, despite all the can-do attitude in
the world.  "Anything" still is not possible.

Steve O.