[AT] energy

George Willer gwill at gwill.net
Tue Feb 26 12:41:48 PST 2008


> 
> The terms of interest are "net energy balance" and "EROEI"
> (energy returned over energy input).  The raging debate
> whether ethanol is a winner or loser uses these terms
> constantly.  Some of the debates compare ethanol to
> gasoline.  Everything I can find on the subject pegs
> gasoline at 5:1... that is, you get five times as much
> energy back as you expended to manufacture it.
> 
> 
> >... I thought
> >when we changed anything from one form to another there was
> >some energy   loss...
> 
> True.  Nothing is perfect in this world.
> >... I can't  believe a bunch of  modern engineers
> >are really  trying to get more energy back than the energy
> >used  in the manufacturing process...
> 
> That statement make sense when discussing any form of energy
> STORAGE.... rechargeable batteries, hydraulic or pneumatic
> accumulators, capacitors, flywheels...
> 
> You are apparently missing the fact that gasoline is an
> energy SOURCE, that merely needs some minor energy input in
> order to transform it from crude oil into gasoline.  You put
> one energy unit into the transformation, and you get five
> units of usable energy from the resulting product.
> 
> 
> >I'm not trying to be argumentative. I don't like giving up
> >on the fuel  cell.
> > It doesn't produce any pollutants. There is secondary
> >value to  be added  back to fuel cell because of zero
> >pollution. I don't know if there is a  way to  determine
> >the dollar value of this benefit or not either.
> >Nevertheless, it  has definite and very desirable secondary
> >value.
> 
> What fuel source are you assuming for the fuel cell?
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> Steve O.

A qualification that may help some...  Here's the first law of
thermodynamics stated.

First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another,
but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter
in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another.
The First Law of Thermodynamics (Conservation) states that energy is always
conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed. In essence, energy can be
converted from one form into another.

The violation that has been stated in other posts is that water can produce
energy by simply starting the splitting process and then using the resulting
hydrogen as a fuel without adding a larger amount of energy to split it from
the oxygen.  If that were possible the hydrogen could be used to fuel the
process and the surplus used for other uses... perpetual motion.

Steve correctly explains that in other words all the energy produced is
accounted for by adding the useful output to the unintended losses to always
equal 100%.  This is always true of any energy storage system whether it's a
battery, a heat sink, a wound spring, a hill, a hurricane, or whatever.

A fuel, on the other hand always contains the energy to begin with, such as
crude oil, firewood, U-235, or whatever.  Fuels behave according to the
second law of thermodynamics... a little more difficult to understand.

George Willer








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