[AJD] JD Manual scans on CD

[Kevin Smolkowski]

My opinion on this is that any JD publication published before 1978
(when the automatic copywrite went into effect) without a copywrite
notice is non-copywrited.
(See http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm, written by a professor
of copywrite law).

I don't think the people are just making a copy of the CD, I think
they are scanning in an old manual and selling the scanned copy.

What if JenSales started selling copies of all their manuals on
CD, wouldn't that be the same thing?  They buy obsolete manuals
and make copies for resale.

Personally, I don't happen to think scanning manuals and selling them
is morally right, but I am not one to impose my morality on others.


Quoting Louis <louis at kellnet.com>:

> I am not talking about non copyrighted material.  I am talking about
> copyrighted material.  Pretty much all printed and electronic media
> Deere puts out is copyrighted. Deere's CD do have a copyright on them
> and basically say reproduction is not authorized.  I think the license
> comes into play when you are using copyright material, trademark, logo,
> etc..  The people making decals and gauges, any product for that matter,
> using the above mentioned items have to get licenses. There are other
> implied protections on printed/digital material, that we may not all be
> aware of. Don't ask me, because I don't know what they are.  If you look
> at my first email on this subject, you will see what Deere told me about
> coping and selling their service bulletins.  I asked their permission
> and they basically said no, it is protected material.
>
> The pistons that you are reproducing fall under patent law. Your part
> probably would be considered aftermarket.  I think you are allowed to
> reproduce/replicate the parts after so many years, without having to get
> the manufacture's permission and/or pay royalties.  If you reproduce the
> part before the patent is up, you have to pay royalties.  If I remember
> correctly, when Deere introduced ROPS, they allowed other manufactures
> to use their design without cost to the others.  Just for the simple
> fact that safety would be advanced.  Look at all the aftermarket parts
> available on the market.  You can get into big trouble if you infringe
> on patent rights.  Deere sued IH over a design of a combine head.  If I
> remember correctly, this was the last nail in IH's coffin.  IH had to
> give Deere real estate, because they didn't have enough money to pay the
> settlement of the lawsuit.
>
>
> I don't much about the ins and outs of patent, copyright, trademark law.
> I know enough to stay out of trouble.  I know copyrights can be renewed,
> I don't know about patents.  I think once a patent expires, it is fair
> game then.
>
> Lou
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> [mailto:antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf
> Of Kevin Smolkowski
> Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 2:58 PM
> To: Antique John Deere mailing list
> Subject: Re: [AJD] JD Manual scans on CD
>
>
>
> I reproduce John Deere Model R pony motor pistons.   Since I did not pay
> Deere to license their piston design, does that mean I am stealing
> it?    Is it only
> OK because Deere no longer makes the parts, or because nobody else has a
> bunch of pony pistons and I am not making them less valuable.
>
> Why is copying a non-copywrited manual stealing, yet making an exact
> duplicate
> of a hard to find part not stealing?
>
>
> Louis wrote:
>
> >Dean,
> >
> >I am with you!!  If these other guys had produced something at their
> >cost and intellect, then had someone come along and make a cheap
> >knock-off, they would change their tune real fast.
> >
> >Bottom line: Wrong is wrong.  These people making copies and selling
> >them are stealing.  It is not the same as lending a your shop manual to
>
> >a buddy.  Your buddy is hopefully going to give you back your manual.
> >Plus, this is most likely done without the exchange of money.  Where
> >this guy is taking something that is copyrighted and protected and then
>
> >copying it.  He has no financial risk involved, other than the cost of
> >a CD.  So go ahead and try to justify how this is right.  Remember when
>
> >you have to justify something, it usually isn't right!
> >
> >Like Dean, said, it makes our legitimate copies worthless.  Then people
>
> >question them when we do want to sell them.  I have 4 original copies
> >of DB1293, I can't sell them right know.  I won't get what they are
> >worth, because this other guy is selling pirated copies, below the
> >original selling price.
> >
> >Chris, I contacted Deere a few weeks ago and reported these copies.
> >You can't report it directly to ebay if it isn't your trademark,
> >copyright, etc...
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> >[mailto:antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf
> >Of Dean VP
> >Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 8:02 PM
> >To: 'Antique John Deere mailing list'
> >Subject: RE: [AJD] JD Manual scans on CD
> >
> >
> >Ron:
> >
> >It is my understanding that JD hired a consultant who recommended the
> >discontinuance of the Vintage CD's. I can almost see the paragraph that
>
> >was written.
> >
> >"DB 1293 JD has $1400 (at recommended new prices) worth of Parts
> >Catalogs on it and you are selling it for $75.00. If you discontinue
> >the CD's, look at how much more money you can make selling CD's per
> >Parts Catalog at a minimum of $30 each with some higher priced. Paper
> >manuals can be priced even higher."
> >
> >I question whether any consideration was given to whether we would be
> >willing to pay it or could afford to. Or how much extra labor was
> >required to make custom CD's "to order" rather than sell a standard
> >product that could be made in volume. Almost reminds me of a "make
> >work" situation. Then I suppose the legal staff was increased to police
>
> >the homemade copies that became prevalent due to JD's extraordinarily
> >high prices. Seems like a circular effort to me.
> >
> >I too am able to distinguish the difference between making a copy for a
>
> >friend to use at no cost vs making copies for commercial sale. Maybe
> >that is called "situational ethics". Don't know for sure.
> >
> >But, having spent a career in a business where we had to protect our
> >intellection property, I sure can understand the manufacturer's point
> >of view. On a more personal basis in this situation, I have spent the
> >$75 each to get originals when they were still for sale. It bothers me
> >a bit to see these unauthorized copies sold for much less than the
> >originals w/o compensation to the originator and it also degrades the
> >value of my original investment. Bottom line is I fall on the side of:
> >
> >"It just isn't right"
> >
> >Dean A. Van Peursem
> >Snohomish, WA 98290
> >
> >I'm a walking storeroom of facts..... I've just lost the key to the
> >storeroom door
> >
> >
> >www.deerelegacy.com
> >
> >http://members.cox.net/classicweb/email.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> >[mailto:antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf
> >Of Ronald L. Cook
> >Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 3:43 PM
> >To: Antique John Deere mailing list
> >Subject: Re: [AJD] JD Manual scans on CD
> >
> >Dean,
> >	If you took a look at my bank account you would certainly say,
> "Ron
> >just isn't good at business".  However, if I had a product that I could
>
> >promote and supply that is in demand, I might raise the price a little.
>
> >  Just a little.  Not enough to upset the newcomers or the old
> >customers.  I'll be darned if I would just up and quit the product.
> The
> >
> >market has shown the demand for the Vintage CD's.  They always go for
> >more than Deere sold them for.  Even the copies.  Screwy, isn't it?
> >	I guess if I had my "druthers", I would like the original hard
> >copy of
> >a manual and a copy on the computer.  There is something I just like
> >about flipping back and forth between pages.  Seems easier to find
> >things.  Now, printing a copy to take in the shop and not worry about
> >the greasy fingerprints, is very handy.  I do that.  I don't have adobe
>
> >ver 7, but I do use ver 6.  It is pretty good.
> >
> >Ron Cook
> >Salix, IA
> >
> >
> >Dean VP wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Ron:
> >>
> >>JD's pricing sure has created the opportunity. Discontinuing selling
> >>the Vintage CD's sure did.
> >>
> >>I tended to prefer the paper manuals until I became familiar with
> >>using
> >>
> >>
> >the
> >
> >
> >>CD's. Now I prefer the CD's as I find the section I want, print it out
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>and take it to the shop and I don't care if I get the pages all
> >>greasy.  Adobe Reader ver 6 and 7 sure have improved the access to the
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>data on these
> >>
> >>
> >CD's.
> >
> >
> >>Dean A. Van Peursem
> >>Snohomish, WA 98290
> >>
> >>I'm a walking storeroom of facts..... I've just lost the key to the
> >>storeroom door
> >>
> >>
> >>www.deerelegacy.com
> >>
> >>http://members.cox.net/classicweb/email.htm
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> >>[mailto:antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>Of Ronald L. Cook
> >>Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 10:34 AM
> >>To: Antique John Deere mailing list
> >>Subject: Re: [AJD] JD Manual scans on CD
> >>
> >>I think Deere's pricing has caused it.  Somehow it seems to always end
>
> >>up that the big buck people get the best no matter what the hobby is
> >>because they can afford it.  Deere no longer caters to the masses.
> >>
> >>
> >They
> >
> >
> >>want the doctors, lawyers, and indian chiefs with expo class stuff.
> >>
> >>
> >My
> >
> >
> >>personal tastes are against that "expo" class.  I just can't see a
> >>
> >>
> >"wet
> >
> >
> >>look, chrome stacked, armor-all tires" tractor making sense and really
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>do not like them.  I have watched people trying to start their
> >>
> >>
> >beautiful
> >
> >
> >>open fan-shafted Model A and it was apparent they had never been
> >>involved with any kind of engine, let alone a tractor.  They just paid
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>for a trophey winning restoration.  Made me bust out laughing.  I am
> >>
> >>
> >not
> >
> >
> >>trying to insult anyone here.  Just stating my opinion.  However, I am
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>probably a minority.  The "working class" tractors probably do not
> >>
> >>
> >cost
> >
> >
> >>as much to end up with.  It is just economics. To me, buying a CD copy
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>for cheap is not much different than borrowing someone's manual to use
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>and probably better than IT manuals.  I do prefer Deere's paper
> >>
> >>
> >manuals
> >
> >
> >>and original if I can get them but really see nothing wrong with
> >>offering a substitute.  It will not be as good a quality and will seek
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>its own level and trying to work from some thing stored on a computer
> >>will for sure drive you nuts.
> >>
> >>Ron Cook
> >>Salix, IA
> >>
> >>Dean VP wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Well, I wondered how long it was going to take before someone tried
> >>>this. Seller on eBay has scanned JD's Paper manuals and is now
> selling
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> >>>them on eBay. Seller has 4 different scanned CD's on now.
> >>>
> >>>Look at eBay auction:  3879451357
> >>>
> >>>Then click on "All Items for sale by this seller"
> >>>
> >>>I have mixed emotions about this. At one time I was told that JD's
> >>>paper manuals are not copyrighted. If that is true then I see no
> >>>reason why this is illegal unless JD already has the same manual on
> CD
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> >>>this is
> >>>
> >>>
> >>copyrighted.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>But..... JD still sells these CD versions of the paper manuals on a
> >>>custom basis.  I've not purchased one of the current custom CD's from
>
> >>>JD so I
> >>>
> >>>
> >>don't
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>know if their custom CD's are copyrighted or not.
> >>>
> >>>I have mixed emotions about this practice. Something tells me it is
> >>>unethical and maybe even illegal. But JD sure has created a price
> >>>umbrella to entice this underground cottage industry.
> >>>
> >>>What do you guys think?
> >>>
> >>>Dean A. Van Peursem
> >>>Snohomish, WA 98290
> >>>
> >>>I'm a walking storeroom of facts..... I've just lost the key to the
> >>>storeroom door
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>www.deerelegacy.com
> >>>
> >>>http://members.cox.net/classicweb/email.htm
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
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> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
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--
Kevin Smolkowski
John Deere Model R
visit: www.twocylinderdiesel.com