[AJD] JD Manual scans on CD

Sun Mar 6 12:15:16 PST 2005

Ron,

I am not upset, you are asking a fair question.

I had two copies at my shop for my computers (desktop, laptop) there and
I had one for my home computer and I bought the 4th one because the home
one got misplaced for a while.  I bought these around 1996 - 1998.
before I had kids and had the extra money to have extra toys. Now I have
one computer at home and one at my shop.  I don't need the extra copies.

Market won't give a fair price at this time, because knock-off copies
are being sold.  I am not going to sell the legitimate copies that I
have for less money than what was paid for them.  When Deere was still
producing them, yes, they would bring less then retail price, but they
are out of production and desirable.  If you were to go and purchase
every catalog on that CD, it would cost $1,460 to buy all those manuals
now.  I will hang onto my CD's, I have sold one and one of my 10 CD
vintage equipment sets.  I will hang onto them until the knock-off's are
cleared out.  Then try to sell them.  I priced all the catalog's on the
10 CD set. It comes out to $33,990, and there are 20 catalogs no longer
available on these CD's.  If you are collecting tractors and equipment
or repairing/restoring as a business, these CD were a bargain

It is also a personal thing about being upset about copyright
infringement.  My mom has had a few books published, mostly Christian
poetry.  When someone has asked permission to use her material, she has
always granted permission, without expecting anything in return.  There
has been some people that have stolen her work and sold it as their own
reaping a profit.  The thing that bothered my mom was the fact that they
claimed the work as their own, when it wasn't.  Then they would get a
polite letter asking them to stop or legal action would have to follow.

Lou  

-----Original Message-----
From: antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
[mailto:antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf
Of Ronald L. Cook
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 11:23 AM
To: Antique John Deere mailing list
Subject: Re: [AJD] JD Manual scans on CD

Lou,
	We have done business.  You are okay in my book.  I do not want
to 
upset you, but probably will.  I agree that stealing and copying are 
wrong if the intent is to make money.  Two questions.  Why do you have 4

DB1293 CD's and why can't you sell them at what the market provides as a

price?

Ron

Louis wrote:
> Dean,
> 
> I am with you!!  If these other guys had produced something at their 
> cost and intellect, then had someone come along and make a cheap 
> knock-off, they would change their tune real fast.
> 
> Bottom line: Wrong is wrong.  These people making copies and selling 
> them are stealing.  It is not the same as lending a your shop manual 
> to a buddy.  Your buddy is hopefully going to give you back your 
> manual. Plus, this is most likely done without the exchange of money.

> Where this guy is taking something that is copyrighted and protected 
> and then copying it.  He has no financial risk involved, other than 
> the cost of a CD.  So go ahead and try to justify how this is right.  
> Remember when you have to justify something, it usually isn't right!
> 
> Like Dean, said, it makes our legitimate copies worthless.  Then 
> people question them when we do want to sell them.  I have 4 original 
> copies of DB1293, I can't sell them right know.  I won't get what they

> are worth, because this other guy is selling pirated copies, below the

> original selling price.
> 
> Chris, I contacted Deere a few weeks ago and reported these copies.  
> You can't report it directly to ebay if it isn't your trademark, 
> copyright, etc...
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> [mailto:antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf

> Of Dean VP
> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 8:02 PM
> To: 'Antique John Deere mailing list'
> Subject: RE: [AJD] JD Manual scans on CD
> 
> 
> Ron:
> 
> It is my understanding that JD hired a consultant who recommended the 
> discontinuance of the Vintage CD's. I can almost see the paragraph 
> that was written.
> 
> "DB 1293 JD has $1400 (at recommended new prices) worth of Parts 
> Catalogs on it and you are selling it for $75.00. If you discontinue 
> the CD's, look at how much more money you can make selling CD's per 
> Parts Catalog at a minimum of $30 each with some higher priced. Paper 
> manuals can be priced even higher."
> 
> I question whether any consideration was given to whether we would be 
> willing to pay it or could afford to. Or how much extra labor was 
> required to make custom CD's "to order" rather than sell a standard 
> product that could be made in volume. Almost reminds me of a "make 
> work" situation. Then I suppose the legal staff was increased to 
> police the homemade copies that became prevalent due to JD's 
> extraordinarily high prices. Seems like a circular effort to me.
> 
> I too am able to distinguish the difference between making a copy for 
> a friend to use at no cost vs making copies for commercial sale. Maybe

> that is called "situational ethics". Don't know for sure.
> 
> But, having spent a career in a business where we had to protect our 
> intellection property, I sure can understand the manufacturer's point 
> of view. On a more personal basis in this situation, I have spent the 
> $75 each to get originals when they were still for sale. It bothers me

> a bit to see these unauthorized copies sold for much less than the 
> originals w/o compensation to the originator and it also degrades the 
> value of my original investment. Bottom line is I fall on the side of:
> 
> "It just isn't right"
> 
> Dean A. Van Peursem
> Snohomish, WA 98290
> 
> I'm a walking storeroom of facts..... I've just lost the key to the 
> storeroom door
> 
> 
> www.deerelegacy.com
> 
> http://members.cox.net/classicweb/email.htm
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> [mailto:antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf

> Of Ronald L. Cook
> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 3:43 PM
> To: Antique John Deere mailing list
> Subject: Re: [AJD] JD Manual scans on CD
> 
> Dean,
> 	If you took a look at my bank account you would certainly say,
"Ron
> just isn't good at business".  However, if I had a product that I
could 
> promote and supply that is in demand, I might raise the price a
little. 
>   Just a little.  Not enough to upset the newcomers or the old 
> customers.  I'll be darned if I would just up and quit the product.
The
> 
> market has shown the demand for the Vintage CD's.  They always go for
> more than Deere sold them for.  Even the copies.  Screwy, isn't it?
> 	I guess if I had my "druthers", I would like the original hard
> copy of 
> a manual and a copy on the computer.  There is something I just like 
> about flipping back and forth between pages.  Seems easier to find 
> things.  Now, printing a copy to take in the shop and not worry about 
> the greasy fingerprints, is very handy.  I do that.  I don't have
adobe 
> ver 7, but I do use ver 6.  It is pretty good.
> 
> Ron Cook
> Salix, IA
> 
> 
> Dean VP wrote:
> 
> 
>>Ron:
>>
>>JD's pricing sure has created the opportunity. Discontinuing selling
>>the Vintage CD's sure did.
>>
>>I tended to prefer the paper manuals until I became familiar with
>>using
> 
> the
> 
>>CD's. Now I prefer the CD's as I find the section I want, print it out
> 
> 
>>and take it to the shop and I don't care if I get the pages all
>>greasy.  Adobe Reader ver 6 and 7 sure have improved the access to the
> 
> 
>>data on these
> 
> CD's.
> 
>>
>>Dean A. Van Peursem
>>Snohomish, WA 98290
>>
>>I'm a walking storeroom of facts..... I've just lost the key to the
>>storeroom door
>>
>>
>>www.deerelegacy.com
>>
>>http://members.cox.net/classicweb/email.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
>>[mailto:antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf
> 
> 
>>Of Ronald L. Cook
>>Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 10:34 AM
>>To: Antique John Deere mailing list
>>Subject: Re: [AJD] JD Manual scans on CD
>>
>>I think Deere's pricing has caused it.  Somehow it seems to always end

>>up that the big buck people get the best no matter what the hobby is 
>>because they can afford it.  Deere no longer caters to the masses.
> 
> They
> 
>>want the doctors, lawyers, and indian chiefs with expo class stuff.
> 
> My
> 
>>personal tastes are against that "expo" class.  I just can't see a
> 
> "wet
> 
>>look, chrome stacked, armor-all tires" tractor making sense and really
> 
> 
>>do not like them.  I have watched people trying to start their
> 
> beautiful
> 
>>open fan-shafted Model A and it was apparent they had never been
>>involved with any kind of engine, let alone a tractor.  They just paid
> 
> 
>>for a trophey winning restoration.  Made me bust out laughing.  I am
> 
> not
> 
>>trying to insult anyone here.  Just stating my opinion.  However, I am
> 
> 
>>probably a minority.  The "working class" tractors probably do not
> 
> cost
> 
>>as much to end up with.  It is just economics. To me, buying a CD copy
> 
> 
>>for cheap is not much different than borrowing someone's manual to use
> 
> 
>>and probably better than IT manuals.  I do prefer Deere's paper
> 
> manuals
> 
>>and original if I can get them but really see nothing wrong with
>>offering a substitute.  It will not be as good a quality and will seek
> 
> 
>>its own level and trying to work from some thing stored on a computer
>>will for sure drive you nuts.
>>
>>Ron Cook
>>Salix, IA
>>
>>Dean VP wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Well, I wondered how long it was going to take before someone tried
>>>this. Seller on eBay has scanned JD's Paper manuals and is now
selling
> 
> 
>>>them on eBay. Seller has 4 different scanned CD's on now.
>>>
>>>Look at eBay auction:  3879451357
>>>
>>>Then click on "All Items for sale by this seller"
>>>
>>>I have mixed emotions about this. At one time I was told that JD's
>>>paper manuals are not copyrighted. If that is true then I see no 
>>>reason why this is illegal unless JD already has the same manual on
CD
> 
> 
>>>this is
>>
>>copyrighted.
>>
>>
>>>But..... JD still sells these CD versions of the paper manuals on a
>>>custom basis.  I've not purchased one of the current custom CD's from

>>>JD so I
>>
>>don't
>>
>>
>>>know if their custom CD's are copyrighted or not.
>>>
>>>I have mixed emotions about this practice. Something tells me it is
>>>unethical and maybe even illegal. But JD sure has created a price 
>>>umbrella to entice this underground cottage industry.
>>>
>>>What do you guys think?
>>>
>>>Dean A. Van Peursem
>>>Snohomish, WA 98290
>>>
>>>I'm a walking storeroom of facts..... I've just lost the key to the
>>>storeroom door
>>>
>>>
>>>www.deerelegacy.com
>>>
>>>http://members.cox.net/classicweb/email.htm
>>
>>
>>
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