[AT] OOOPS - Do as I say not as I do - now rambling off topic...heating

Thu Jul 28 15:49:35 PDT 2005

You may be preaching to the choir here, George.  :-)

When we remodeled our kitchen several years ago, we made the decision up
front that rather than do any of the work myself, we would hire all of
it done.  That sort of decision is not always an option, but it was in
this particular case.  Once that decision was made, I found out that the
price of the hardware and building materials was a minor portion of the
total cost.  Using the promotional or contractor's models instead of the
top of the line saved very little on the final cost.  As a result, we
put in both equipment and materials that are far better than the high
volume items you find at Home Depot and Lowe's.  The only thing we
salvaged from the existing kitchen was the refrigerator.  So far, that
seems to have been the biggest mistake we made.

Larry

-----Original Message-----
From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
[mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of George Willer
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 4:45 PM
To: Antique tractor email discussion group
Subject: Re: [AT] OOOPS - Do as I say not as I do - now rambling off
topic...heating

Charlie,

We switched over to building nearly all total electric homes in 1966,
and 
only built a couple with fossil fueled heating systems since.  Our own
home 
with gas fired hot water heat was one of the last gas homes we built...
and 
it was a total loss in a fire in 1972 when it was 7 years old, possibly
from 
a gas leak.  The replacement using some of the original foundation and
of 
the same total square footage (about 2000) was heated by electric
radiant 
ceilings... much more economical than the gas had been.

Our present home was built in 1991and is nearly twice as large, (3800 
Sq.Ft.) with an unusual heat pump.  It is ground source with a twist...
it 
has the freon running directly through 20 100' coils buried in a large
pit. 
Our water is heated by the heat pump too... directly or with waste heat 
during the cooling cycle.  The huge advantage to this system is the 
elimination of any heat exchanger or pumping losses on the ground source

side.  Another advantage that would be difficult to measure but has to
be 
there... the ground in the pit is a huge heat sink.  Some of the waste
heat 
from the cooling cycle is still there for recovery during the heating
cycle. 
Except for inflation this home is even less expensive to heat and cool
than 
the last, much smaller one was.

Are you ready for a lecture on heating efficiency?  C.O.P. of heat pumps

compared to performance of fuel fired furnaces?

George Willer

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "charlie hill" <chill8 at cox.net>
To: "Antique tractor email discussion group"
<at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: [AT] OOOPS - Do as I say not as I do - now rambling off
topic

> Roger,  do you recall how much more it cost (percentage wise) than a 
> normal air to air heat pump would have been for your house.  We are 
> thinking about building a place and I'm trying to absorb every little
bit 
> of information I can.
>
> Charlie
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Roger Welsch" <captneb at micrord.com>
> To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" 
> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 11:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [AT] OOOPS - Do as I say not as I do - now rambling off
topic
>
>
>> One of the few really smart things we did when we moved out here was
to
>> install a geothermal heat pump for both heating and cooling.  We have
a 
>> lot
>> of subsurface water...we are on sand and about 1000 yards from the
Loup
>> River...so water is not a problem.  It's one thing to cool with
hundred
>> degree air in the summer and heat with -20 degree air in the winter,
but
>> it's quite another, we find, to use 60 degree water for both.  A
closed
>> coolant subsurface loop does the same thing without pulling up the
water 
>> but
>> we find we use very little water in both heating and cooling our huge
old
>> house even pumping and dumping (we use it to water the lawn and
trees, so 
>> it
>> gets another use before making a very small wet spot below the yard.
I
>> highly recommend the system.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Larry D. Goss" <rlgoss at evansville.net>
>> To: "'Antique tractor email discussion group'"
>> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 9:44 AM
>> Subject: RE: [AT] OOOPS - Do as I say not as I do - now rambling off 
>> topic
>>
>>
>>> You're on the right track to eliminate all natural gas in your
house,
>>> Farmer.  When we moved into this house 16 years ago, I was not
looking
>>> forward to the utility bills, but I was mildly shocked to find that
the
>>> all-electric solution for heating, cooling, and cooking saved us
money.
>>> This house is over twice the size of the one we moved out of, but
the
>>> utility bills are lower.  The big difference -- no gas.  Since we
moved
>>> in, we've taken steps to make the use of energy more efficient than
it
>>> already was.  All windows and doors have been replaced.  The heat
pump
>>> is now a high-efficiency model.  The water heater is high
efficiency.
>>> We're replacing all the toilets with pressure flush models, etc.
>>>
>>> One of the big helps is the windows.  We had double glazed windows
with
>>> the standard unsealed storms, but now all windows and door lights
are
>>> triple glazed.  My Dad did triple glazing on the farm house where I
was
>>> born in northern Indiana.  Before he did it, he did the calculations
on
>>> the energy savings.  It turned out that the utility bill savings in
a
>>> single heating season was greater than the total added cost of the
>>> triple glazing at all the windows.  Bottom line, IMHO you can't
afford
>>> not to do it.  One of my colleagues at the university decided he
needed
>>> to do the same thing to his house, so he's changing out his windows
at a
>>> rate of one per year.  He's doing it that way because of the limits
on
>>> energy credits on income taxes.  If he does one window per year, he
>>> stays under $1000 per year and can get credits for the whole
conversion.
>>> I suspect that he's being a bit short-sighted on that deal.  He
probably
>>> would save more money by getting the whole house converted so his
>>> utility bills would be lower immediately.
>>>
>>> Before the flames begin, you obviously can't have the house sealed
as
>>> well as it ends up being with triple glazed windows if you're using
>>> natural or LP gas for anything inside unless you provide for
combustion
>>> air.  That's even taken care of in this house.  It has combustion
air
>>> for the fireplace ducted to the hearth and the fireplace liner
provides
>>> heat to the house through separate ducting.
>>>
>>> Larry
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
>>> [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of Indiana
>>> Robinson
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 8:52 AM
>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OOOPS - Do as I say not as I do - now rambling off
>>> topic
>>>
>>> On 28 Jul 2005 at 8:00, George Willer wrote:
>>>
>>> > What!!!  Turn the compressor off???  You've got to be kidding,
Dean.
>>> I
>>> > leave my system on 24/7/358, and have for many years.  I do switch
it
>>> off
>>> > when we go to Portland for the week.  Having air instantly
available
>>> at any
>>> > of the 8 outlets is just too handy to mess with turning it off
>>> anywhere.
>>> >
>>> > For Portland week only I also turn the power off to the water
system.
>>> Do
>>> > you turn your water off when you aren't using it also?
>>> >
>>> > George Willer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I also leave mine on 24-7 but I have to shut it off in cold
>>> weather since my shop is
>>> cold. It has trouble starting in cold weather. When we leave for
more
>>> than a day trip I
>>> do shut the water (and water heater) off at the breaker box.
>>>
>>> In a similar vein, 2 years ago my mother had a small leak
>>> develop in an unused natural
>>> gas wall furnace. it apparently started at the beginning of the
billing
>>> cycle and when
>>> the bill came it was $1800 high for the month. With the help of an
old
>>> school friend (I
>>> say "old" because he is a year older than I am) with the gas company
I
>>> traced it to a
>>> constant small leak to that extra furnace and shut down that line.
This
>>> was not in the
>>> heating season. The next bill had another $400 in "leak" cost on it.
>>> Since it was on our
>>> side of the meter they would forgive none of it. I never bothered to
>>> look for the actual
>>> leak but since all of that line was in the basement and a closed
crawl
>>> space I am
>>> assuming that it was leaking at the furnace electric control valve
and
>>> venting to the
>>> outside up on the roof. Otherwise we would have smelled it (or blown
>>> up). I plan to
>>> remove that area furnace and replace it with an electric baseboard
>>> heater. It was an
>>> expensive Warm Morning wall unit installed to heat 2 added rooms but
it
>>> is quite noisy by
>>> design. It sounds like a wind tunnel.  I might even convert the
whole
>>> house to all
>>> electric. One less bill each month. My present house is all electric
>>> (except my pellet
>>> stove heat {was wood}) and has been since we put it up 29 years ago
this
>>> month. I have
>>> been satisfied with the all electric. At times we thought about
other
>>> fuels when electric
>>> got a bit high but then the other fuels would jump up and down,
mostly
>>> up   ;-)  in
>>> price. My electric heat has a thermostat in each room and is
completely
>>> quiet. I have
>>> been in houses where the furnace fan was so loud that you could
hardly
>>> hear a TV above it
>>> when it kicked on. My pellet stove is a tiny bit louder than I like
>>> since it sits in a
>>> nook very near my lazyboy but at least it is constant. When I move
to
>>> the other house,
>>> probably next summer, I plan to put a large capacity corn / pellet
stove
>>> in the basement
>>> to provide most of the heat for the house and the regular basement
>>> furnace (with a quiet
>>> blower system) will be used to distribute the heat to the main
floor.
>>> The furnace burner
>>> will come on only in very cold weather if I use it at all. I might
even
>>> install electric
>>> baseboard heat in the rest of the house to take up any possible
slack in
>>> very cold
>>> weather or I may use radiant hot water heat under the floors heated
by
>>> the corn stove. I
>>> would still like to get the gas out of the house altogether. Every
>>> couple of years there
>>> is a house destroyed by a gas explosion around here... House go
boom,
>>> fall down...  :-)
>>> There are 5 gas lines in that house. One for the furnace, one
>>> for the second furnace,
>>> one for the water heater, one for the dryer and another for an
unused
>>> gas heater that was
>>> installed in the basement when the house was built on to years ago.
>>> There is a large line
>>> to the shop and another to the old milk house. Most of those lines
are
>>> about 40 years old
>>> now and the potential for leaks is getting higher. It does not take
many
>>> $2200 leaks to
>>> eat up any possible savings...   :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> "farmer", Esquire
>>> At Hewick Midwest
>>>       Wealth beyond belief, just no money...
>>>
>>> Paternal Robinson's here by way of Norway (Clan Gunn), Scottish
>>> Highlands,
>>> Cleasby Yorkshire England, Virginia, Kentucky then Indiana. In
America
>>> 100
>>> years
>>> before the revolution.
>>>
>>>
>>> Francis Robinson
>>> Central Indiana USA
>>> robinson at svs.net
>>>
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