<div dir="ltr">There's nothing like finding the excuse to install a 12' gantry crane! That is going to be very handy in the future.<div><br></div><div>SO</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 10:16 PM John Hall <<a href="mailto:jtchall@nc.rr.com">jtchall@nc.rr.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
Well now that the 454 is done I started pulling the engine out of my
combine today. This will be interesting. I had to put in a 12' high
gantry crane for this project......<br>
<br>
John Hall<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 8/28/2021 7:08 PM, Carl Szabelski
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
Glad to here it’s resolved. Now I’ve got to find something else to
work on. Maybe something on that two year old list my wife has, or
maybe not. Too hot and muggy here in Michigan to do anything
anyway. 90+ degrees with about 80%+ humidity. No relief until
middle of next week, unless Ida pushes more warm and humid air
North by then.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Carl<br>
<br>
On Friday, August 27, 2021, John Hall <<a href="mailto:jtchall@nc.rr.com" target="_blank">jtchall@nc.rr.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div> I THINK the problem is solved!!!<br>
<br>
First let me say thank you to all who offered ideas--all
ideas are appreciated when you have no idea where to turn
next. If I try to reply to everyone, gonna be a cluttered
mess of emails. If I don't mention someone who tossed out
ideas or info, don't be offended.<br>
<br>
Special thanks to Carl for being so diligent researching
this. It was nice to bounce ideas off someone doing the same
research!<br>
<br>
Long story short, this system uses a resistor wire. Given
time, it would get hot and fail. It is also noteworthy this
is the HOTTEST tractor IH ever built by design (routing of
exhaust mainly) so that pushes the heat even higher. So
between this list, the Facebook IH Group, local starter
shop, an older car mechanic, internet old car forums/groups,
a custom car wiring harness builder and help from Ken
Updike, I determined this system uses a resistor wire, not a
coil with built in resistor. Internet searches on ignition
systems give better explanation than me but I'll sum up how
it works. Resistor wire feeds aprox 6V to coil, but during
cranking the solenoid on the starter also actuates a bypass
circuit to feed 12v for as long as starter is engaged
(hotter spark, starts easier, especially in cold weather).
The jumper wire proved something was going on once the
system was hot. In researching I found that resistor wires
are part of the harness, fail more often than you think, and
the workaround is either buy a new harness or put on one of
those ceramic ignition resistors with a separate feed from
the key switch. These resistors were quite common on a lot
of older cars, I picked one up at Oreileys. A lot of the old
car crowd has posted doing this same thing. This setup still
allows for the boost in voltage during cranking, where
replacing the coil with a 12 internal resistor on its own
wire would eliminate that feature.Note that all the original
wiring must be left intact and hooked up!! I found no one
selling resistor wire in quantities need for a repair such
as this--probably part of the reason is who would really
know the specs on the wire to know what to get. I did see
mention of folks using a donor harness to salvage that wire.<br>
<br>
One thing that confuses a lot of people (including me until
3-4 days ago)--the voltage at the coil input WILL vary
depending on if the points are open or closed--Greg Easley
pointed this out if anyone wants to study further.<br>
<br>
Anyway, I ran the tractor for over an hour tonight
mowing--I've ran out of big stuff to cut so pushing hard
trying to get the temp way up was difficult, so I grabbed
another gear and pushed pretty hard and got it as warm as I
could. Also I had all the sheet metal off so it was probably
running cooler as well. I'm pretty darn confident its now
fixed, enough that I'm gonna get the haybine hooked up and
cut some hay soon (I hope).<br>
<br>
One of the late comers to comment on this was Ken in AZ. I
must say he nailed everything from what the wire is made of
to how to work around the problem.<br>
<br>
Spencer, thanks for keeping this list going, the gang really
stepped up on this one!!<br>
<br>
John Hall<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 8/27/2021 4:52 PM, Carl Szabelski wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> John,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Found what I believe to be info on the starter relay
and it appears there is no internal resistance, so back
to square one (?). You indicated that with the wire
removed from the R terminal you have 12V at the
terminal. If putting the wire back results in 6V at the
coil, then that wire has to be what is causing the drop.
There is a splice in the harness that splits the 12V in
the harness. The part of the wire going to the coil may
be high resistance wire. Have you tried bypassing that
portion of the harness by running a wire from the R
terminal to the coil with the original wire
disconnected?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Running out of ideas.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Carl<br>
<br>
On Friday, August 27, 2021, Carl Szabelski <<a href="mailto:c.s.szabelski@gmail.com" target="_blank">c.s.szabelski@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">John,
I’ve gone trough the wiring diagram and traced all the
feeds from the R terminal on the starter relay, one of
course goes to the coil. All the other feeds go to
things like sensors, the fuel shutoff valve, etc. They
all form parallel circuits to the coil, eventually
going to ground. If there was a short anywhere it
would take the R terminal to ground and you wouldn’t
see any voltage at the coil, or possibly anywhere
else.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I’m still of the mind that your issue is with the
starter relay. I don’t know the internals of the
relay, but from how I believe it should work is that
the relay has an internal resistance built into it
to drop the voltage to 6V after the start. During a
start the resistance is bypassed and you get 12V at
the coil, necessary for cold weather starts. This is
all done with two sets of contacts built into the
relay. What I think is happening is the contacts for
the internal resistance are remaining closed after
the start, thereby leaving that resistance in the
circuit. That along with any internal resistor in
the coil is too much resistance at 6V for the coil
to work properly. The contacts are probably shut
closed after years of arcing.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One thing to try is hitting the relay to see if
you can break the contacts free, assuming they are
there. Also as I mentioned earlier, see if you can
open up the relay and look inside.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Carl</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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<br>
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