<HTML><HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>I agree the whole head isn’t going to shrink. However, I can imagine
the pressure from the head bolts acting on the overheated head to cause some
displacement of the head material. When cooled back to a normal
temperature, the dimension from where the head bolts contact the head to the
gasket surface could be reduced. This could be confirmed by measurement
before and after.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Having not seen the actual wording of the bulletin, I could imagine it
stating something to that effect. I would presume someone at Satoh made
such measurements.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Jim Becker</DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=soffiler@gmail.com>Stephen
Offiler</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 19, 2019 2:23 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=at@lists.antique-tractor.com>Antique Tractor Email
Discussion Group</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [AT] Statistics In Tractor Manufacturing Was Bicycle
Program</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV dir=ltr>I don't buy that, Cecil. I don't think the head shrinks
regardless of what the service bulletin said. I think it expands when
overheated, putting a permanent stretch in the head bolts, resulting in
insufficient torque when it cools down. Retorque it, then overheat it
again, and they stretch again, and again.
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Steve O.</DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV class=gmail_attr dir=ltr>On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:27 AM Cecil Bearden
<<A>crbearden@copper.net</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">
<DIV bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<P>Back in the early 70's when I was working at the tractor shop, we were the
Satoh tractor dealer. The tractor had an aluminum head on a cast iron
block w/ steel studs. we sold it to a couple of sisters who had been
suing a Cub Farmall with a belly mower. The Satoh would get grass
built up in the radiator and overheat. When it cooled down, the
head would have to be re-torqued. The first couple of times we replaced
the gasket. The last 2 times we just re-torqued the bolts. Later
we got a service bulletin that stated the head would shrink when it
overheated. Maybe that is the reason the rocker arm bracket gets loose
on the Kawasaki.. <BR></P>
<P>In our case the sisters filed a lawsuit and we had to go find another
Cub Farmall to replace the one they traded in. The boss convinced
the purchaser of the used Cub Farmall to trade for the Satoh that overheated
and that owner was very happy as he did not mow Bermuda grass. <BR></P>
<P>Cecil<BR></P>
<DIV>On 9/18/2019 7:28 AM, Jim Becker wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)">
<DIV>Henry, do you also find the rocker arm bracket bolt loose when the push
rods get bent? As Steve pointed out, it seems unlikely that sticky
valves would result in 2 bent push rods at/near the same time. My
knowledge of the Kawasaki V-twin consists of what I read in this
thread. But I wonder if the failure mode is overheating allowing the
rocker arm bracket to get loose, allowing the push rods to get loose and
bend. Maybe the fix is to add a bend-over tab type retainer to the
bolt.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Jim Becker</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: rgb(245,245,245)">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=soffiler@gmail.com>Stephen Offiler</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 18, 2019 3:44 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=at@lists.antique-tractor.com>Antique Tractor Email
Discussion Group</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [AT] Statistics In Tractor Manufacturing Was
Bicycle Program</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline">
<DIV dir=ltr>Henry, is yours is a Kawasaki V-twin? Are you just
replacing the bent pushrods? Based on the Internet chatter I've
read on the lawn forums, the root cause is sticky valves, and the permanent
solution is a new head (comes complete with valve guides and seats) and new
valves. That's what I'm doing right now, reusing only the valve
springs, keepers, and rocker arms. In my case, it wasn't even a
question, because my head gasket was blown, so that head is certainly warped
too.
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>These engines are sensitive to proper cooling airflow. Again with
the lawn forums, seems I'm far from the only one who has had an overheat
without realizing it. Mostly it's grass clippings that cause the
problem although mine was mouse nest. People talk about removing the
shrouds every X hours to clean the fins. Actually a really
easy job. The bolt holes in the main shroud are slots, you just loosen
the fasteners and pull it straight off.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>SO</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV class=gmail_attr dir=ltr>On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 9:03 PM Henry Miller
<<A>hank@millerfarm.com</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">I've had the bent pushrod 3 times now in
mine, it has always been both, though I too can't figure out why both
should go at the same time. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV
id=gmail-m_6534299526311272191gmail-m_-2443874424762000347sig11221025>
<DIV>-- <BR></DIV>
<DIV> Henry Miller<BR></DIV>
<DIV> <A>hank@millerfarm.com</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV>On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, at 8:27 AM, Stephen Offiler wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=gmail-m_6534299526311272191gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt
type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">Mine is a long story. All my
stories are long ;-)<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Gravely zero-turn with 24HP Kawasaki V-twin. I keep it
maintained by the book, and use it pretty hard but not abused. It
ends up being stored in places where mice are just going to be present,
no way to eradicate them (and yes there are cats around). Quite a
while ago, could have been early '18 or back even further in '17, I was
checking the air filter (which I do roughly every 3-4 mows) and found it
had a huge hole chewed in it. That means I probably ran the
machine unfiltered a couple times. Suspicious and worried, I
pulled the shrouds, and found the #1 cylinder fins just packed with
slow-roasted mouse-nest. Most likely, I ran it a couple times with
impaired cooling on that cylinder, and it overheated. I cleaned it
all out and went back to mowing. It ran well, plenty of power, but
I did notice an increase in oil consumption. I wondered if that
was the overheating, or the ingestion of unfiltered dusty air. I
didn't really feel like tearing it down so I just kept running it.
And, with an eye on oil level, it did fine for 1-2 years, until just
recently. It coughed and started running poorly. Drove it
into the shop and found #1 was barely warm; it was only running on
#2. Tore into #1 and found both rods bent plus the bolt holding
the "Rocker arm bracket" was very loose. What the internet tells
me is that overheat leads to sticky valves and when a valve sticks the
pushrod gets out of place and bends. That sounds very
plausible but I'm still not sure how I bent BOTH of them and how that
loose rocker bracket happened. Oh and the head gasket is blown on
that side, which probably explains the increased oil consumption.
I am replacing the whole head, pushrods, valves, valve seals,
gaskets. Cost about $300 in parts online. Waiting right now
for parts to arrive and the grass is still growing.<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>SO<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 8:46 AM Cecil Bearden
<<A>crbearden@copper.net</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">
<DIV bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">The only time I bent a push rod was
when I over revved the engine. It was on a 292 Ford V-8 in an
old 57 4wd F100. I got stuck and had to give it the gas to get
out. I straightened the rod out on an anvil and it i still
running...<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">Cecil<BR></DIV>
<DIV>On 9/17/2019 6:03 AM, Henry Miller wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">My zero turn is in the shop with the
same bent pushrods issue. Second time this summer. I'm thinking
about a different engine... I have the replacement rods, but I found
a small spring by the valves that doesn't come from anywhere
obvious. I'll have to tear into it more now to see what else is
wrong.<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV
id=gmail-m_6534299526311272191gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail-m_5249227966473923076sig11221025>
<DIV>-- <BR></DIV>
<DIV> Henry Miller<BR></DIV>
<DIV> <A>hank@millerfarm.com</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV>On Mon, Sep 16, 2019, at 3:51 PM, Stephen Offiler
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
id=gmail-m_6534299526311272191gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail-m_5249227966473923076qt
type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">Mike M - that just happened to me
yesterday! I've got a Gravely zero-turn with Kawasaki V-twin
that bent a pushrod at 306 hours (known issue, easy-ish
fix). It is sitting right now waiting for parts to
arrive. Yesterday, I was walking past and happened to look
down and saw 600 and something hours on the meter, which was odd
but didn't quite register until it clicked over another tenth
digit while I was watching. That happens once every 6
minutes, so I got real lucky to see it. I guess the key got
bumped somehow during disassembly Now, all the service
reminders are saying "CHG NOW". I'm doing engine oil and air
filter now anyway, but losing the service reminder on the hydro
units bugs me. It added 337 hours sitting still (divide by
24 to see how long I've been waiting for parts, and therefore how
long the grass is getting!). Since I'm not likely to ever
sell this machine, I don't really care that much about the fake
hours.<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">Steve O.<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 4:09 PM Mike M
<<A>meulenms@gmx.com</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">
<DIV bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">I have a Scag zero turn that I
bought new, I put about 350 hours on it over the course of
several years. When I parked it this last fall, I
accidentally left the key on, so when I went to start it this
Spring I had 3500 hours on it. Fortunately my daughter works at
the dealer so I was able to buy a new one. <BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">Mike M<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV>On 9/16/2019 2:42 PM, Spencer Yost wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">New tractors have hours
embedded in the computer. Replacement computers are easily
spotted by the metadata in the computer. So for
approximately the last 10-15 years we have a reliable
indicator of usage or computer replacement/tampering on most
models. <BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>However, being able to obtain the equipment and software
necessary to read the computer is still a sticking point and
at the heart of the right to repair lawsuits going
around. These lawsuits are extending to other
equipment and devices. So farmers were actually at the
forefront of this movement. <BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">Ok fine print for the
following:<BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>This is not a political statement.
</SPAN>I absolutely positively never endorse any presidential
candidate publicly on this list nor should the following be
construed as support for the candidates mentioned.
<SPAN>I only add the following statements and link as a way to
let y’all know that our frustrations with equipment are being
heard by some. Ok enough with the fine
print:</SPAN><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Elizabeth Warren added support for the right to repair
movement as one of her written policy planks - T<SPAN>o my
knowledge the only one but the movement should grow to the
point candidates probably won’t be able to ignore it.
</SPAN>Here’s Warren’s policy paper on agriculture in general
but in that she specifically mentions right to
repair:<BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"><A
href="https://medium.com/@teamwarren/leveling-the-playing-field-for-americas-family-farmers-823d1994f067"
target=_blank>https://medium.com/@teamwarren/leveling-the-playing-field-for-americas-family-farmers-823d1994f067</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I am watching the right to repair movement
closely.<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Spencer<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV
id=gmail-m_6534299526311272191gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail-m_5249227966473923076qt-gmail-m_7420150113575157276AppleMailSignature
dir=ltr>Sent from my iPhone<BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">On Sep 16, 2019, at 10:29 AM,
Al Jones <<A>farmallsupera1@gmail.com</A>>
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>No. If your tachometer goes bad, you get a new
one with 0000.0 hours. <BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Al<BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 11:52 PM Cecil Bearden
<<A>crbearden@copper.net</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">Probably not, and the
mileage on the title of an auto or truck is <BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">nothing that can be relied
on... I used to be able to tell by the wear
<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">on floorboards, rust,
paint scratches etc if a trucks mileage was <BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">right. Tractors are
a different animal. Usually just change the tires
<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">and if repainted, change
the hoses and belts, new seat and cab interior <BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">and it is a new
tractor.<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">Cecil<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">On 9/15/2019 8:36 PM, Jack
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">> Tractors are not
titled. Automobiles and trucks are. When you sell an auto,
you record the mileage at time of sale and your signature.
Is it even illegal to alter the hour meter on a
tractor?<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">> -----Original
Message-----<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">> From: AT
<<A>at-bounces@lists.antique-tractor.com</A>> On
Behalf Of Cecil Bearden<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">> Sent: Saturday,
September 14, 2019 7:33 PM<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">> To:
<A>at@lists.antique-tractor.com</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">> Subject: Re: [AT]
Statistics In Tractor Manufacturing Was Bicycle
Program<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">> The New Holland Money
Pit is what it is because somewhere in its history the
hour meter was turned back. New tires were installed
and it was made to look like a 5 yr old tractor with about
200 hrs per year.<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">> Cecil<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">> On 9/14/2019 10:26
AM, James Peck wrote:<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>> Some years ago I
did participate in an academic Statistical Quality Control
course. Much of the course involved the Weibull
Distribution. If I remember correctly, the Weibull Curve
predicted the lifespan of a manufactured assembly such as
a tractor. It appears to be a gift from the
mathematicians.<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>> <A
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weibull_distribution"
rel=noreferrer
target=_blank>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weibull_distribution</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>> The same
distribution probably predicts that Cecil’s New Holland
money pit will continue to be so and will suffer an early
demise.<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>> [Stephen Offiler]
I never took a whole semester of Statistics.
Instead, we had a course called Engineering
Experimentation, which was heavy on experiment design and
statistical data analysis. That gave me a very good
appreciation for the practical application of
statistics. Out in the real world, on-the-job
training programs in quality control principles in
manufacturing (Deming, Juran, Lean Six Sigma) continued to
solidify the practical applications.<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>> [Cecil Bearden]
Steve: I nearly flunked statistics I only passed because I
was a graduating senior. However, I did flunk Rocks
& Clods 2124 and had to find another 4 hours to
graduate. Then 35 years later I retire as a
Geotechnical engineer designing foundations. !!!<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>> [Stephen Offiler]
I'm not sure if that is an interesting statistic, or
simply predictable statistically. All you just said
is that a bell-curve distribution for 2-year degrees
overlaps a bell-curve distribution for 4-year
degrees.<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>> [ James Peck] The
interesting statistic is that some technical 2 year
programs have higher starting incomes than many 4 year
degree programs. People who complete such a program can
later take a 2+2 program to get a four year degree if they
choose.<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>>
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<DIV dir=ltr>
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