<HTML><HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>Henry, do you also find the rocker arm bracket bolt loose when the push
rods get bent? As Steve pointed out, it seems unlikely that sticky valves
would result in 2 bent push rods at/near the same time. My knowledge of
the Kawasaki V-twin consists of what I read in this thread. But I wonder
if the failure mode is overheating allowing the rocker arm bracket to get loose,
allowing the push rods to get loose and bend. Maybe the fix is to add a
bend-over tab type retainer to the bolt.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Jim Becker</DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=soffiler@gmail.com>Stephen
Offiler</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 18, 2019 3:44 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=at@lists.antique-tractor.com>Antique Tractor Email
Discussion Group</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [AT] Statistics In Tractor Manufacturing Was Bicycle
Program</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV dir=ltr>Henry, is yours is a Kawasaki V-twin? Are you just replacing
the bent pushrods? Based on the Internet chatter I've read on the
lawn forums, the root cause is sticky valves, and the permanent solution is a
new head (comes complete with valve guides and seats) and new valves.
That's what I'm doing right now, reusing only the valve springs, keepers, and
rocker arms. In my case, it wasn't even a question, because my head gasket
was blown, so that head is certainly warped too.
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>These engines are sensitive to proper cooling airflow. Again with the
lawn forums, seems I'm far from the only one who has had an overheat without
realizing it. Mostly it's grass clippings that cause the problem although
mine was mouse nest. People talk about removing the shrouds every X hours
to clean the fins. Actually a really easy job. The bolt
holes in the main shroud are slots, you just loosen the fasteners and pull it
straight off.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>SO</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV class=gmail_attr dir=ltr>On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 9:03 PM Henry Miller
<<A>hank@millerfarm.com</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex"><U></U>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">I've had the bent pushrod 3 times now in mine,
it has always been both, though I too can't figure out why both should go at
the same time. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV id=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347sig11221025>
<DIV class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347signature>-- <BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347signature> Henry Miller<BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347signature> <A
target=_blank>hank@millerfarm.com</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347signature> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV>On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, at 8:27 AM, Stephen Offiler wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">Mine is a long story. All my stories
are long ;-)<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Gravely zero-turn with 24HP Kawasaki V-twin. I keep it maintained
by the book, and use it pretty hard but not abused. It ends up being
stored in places where mice are just going to be present, no way to
eradicate them (and yes there are cats around). Quite a while ago,
could have been early '18 or back even further in '17, I was checking the
air filter (which I do roughly every 3-4 mows) and found it had a huge hole
chewed in it. That means I probably ran the machine unfiltered a
couple times. Suspicious and worried, I pulled the shrouds, and found
the #1 cylinder fins just packed with slow-roasted mouse-nest. Most
likely, I ran it a couple times with impaired cooling on that cylinder, and
it overheated. I cleaned it all out and went back to mowing. It
ran well, plenty of power, but I did notice an increase in oil
consumption. I wondered if that was the overheating, or the ingestion
of unfiltered dusty air. I didn't really feel like tearing it down so
I just kept running it. And, with an eye on oil level, it did fine for
1-2 years, until just recently. It coughed and started running
poorly. Drove it into the shop and found #1 was barely warm; it was
only running on #2. Tore into #1 and found both rods bent plus the
bolt holding the "Rocker arm bracket" was very loose. What the
internet tells me is that overheat leads to sticky valves and when a valve
sticks the pushrod gets out of place and bends. That sounds very
plausible but I'm still not sure how I bent BOTH of them and how that loose
rocker bracket happened. Oh and the head gasket is blown on that side,
which probably explains the increased oil consumption. I am replacing
the whole head, pushrods, valves, valve seals, gaskets. Cost about
$300 in parts online. Waiting right now for parts to arrive and the
grass is still growing.<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>SO<BR></DIV>
<DIV> <BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail_quote>
<DIV class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail_attr dir=ltr>On Tue, Sep 17,
2019 at 8:46 AM Cecil Bearden <<A
target=_blank>crbearden@copper.net</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">
<DIV bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">The only time I bent a push rod was when I
over revved the engine. It was on a 292 Ford V-8 in an old 57 4wd
F100. I got stuck and had to give it the gas to get out. I
straightened the rod out on an anvil and it i still running...<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">Cecil<BR></DIV>
<DIV
class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail-m_5249227966473923076moz-cite-prefix>On
9/17/2019 6:03 AM, Henry Miller wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">My zero turn is in the shop with the
same bent pushrods issue. Second time this summer. I'm thinking about a
different engine... I have the replacement rods, but I found a small
spring by the valves that doesn't come from anywhere obvious. I'll have
to tear into it more now to see what else is wrong.<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV
id=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail-m_5249227966473923076sig11221025>
<DIV
class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail-m_5249227966473923076signature>--
<BR></DIV>
<DIV
class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail-m_5249227966473923076signature>
Henry Miller<BR></DIV>
<DIV
class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail-m_5249227966473923076signature>
<A
class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail-m_5249227966473923076moz-txt-link-abbreviated
target=_blank>hank@millerfarm.com</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV
class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail-m_5249227966473923076signature> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV>On Mon, Sep 16, 2019, at 3:51 PM, Stephen Offiler wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
id=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail-m_5249227966473923076qt
type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">Mike M - that just happened to me
yesterday! I've got a Gravely zero-turn with Kawasaki V-twin
that bent a pushrod at 306 hours (known issue, easy-ish fix). It
is sitting right now waiting for parts to arrive. Yesterday, I
was walking past and happened to look down and saw 600 and something
hours on the meter, which was odd but didn't quite register until it
clicked over another tenth digit while I was watching. That
happens once every 6 minutes, so I got real lucky to see it. I
guess the key got bumped somehow during disassembly Now, all the
service reminders are saying "CHG NOW". I'm doing engine oil and
air filter now anyway, but losing the service reminder on the hydro
units bugs me. It added 337 hours sitting still (divide by 24 to
see how long I've been waiting for parts, and therefore how long the
grass is getting!). Since I'm not likely to ever sell this
machine, I don't really care that much about the fake hours.<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">Steve O.<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV
class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail-m_5249227966473923076qt-gmail_quote>
<DIV
class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail-m_5249227966473923076qt-gmail_attr
dir=ltr>On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 4:09 PM Mike M <<A
target=_blank>meulenms@gmx.com</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail-m_5249227966473923076qt-gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">
<DIV bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">I have a Scag zero turn that I
bought new, I put about 350 hours on it over the course of several
years. When I parked it this last fall, I accidentally left
the key on, so when I went to start it this Spring I had 3500 hours
on it. Fortunately my daughter works at the dealer so I was able to
buy a new one. <BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">Mike M<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV
class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail-m_5249227966473923076qt-gmail-m_7420150113575157276moz-cite-prefix>On
9/16/2019 2:42 PM, Spencer Yost wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">New tractors have hours embedded
in the computer. Replacement computers are easily spotted by the
metadata in the computer. So for approximately the
last 10-15 years we have a reliable indicator of usage or computer
replacement/tampering on most models. <BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>However, being able to obtain the equipment and software
necessary to read the computer is still a sticking point and at
the heart of the right to repair lawsuits going
around. These lawsuits are extending to other
equipment and devices. So farmers were actually at the forefront
of this movement. <BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">Ok fine print for the
following:<BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347highlight>This is not
a political statement. </SPAN>I absolutely positively
never endorse any presidential candidate publicly on this list nor
should the following be construed as support for the
candidates mentioned. <SPAN
class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347highlight>I only add the
following statements and link as a way to let y’all know that our
frustrations with equipment are being heard by some. Ok
enough with the fine print:</SPAN><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Elizabeth Warren added support for the right to repair
movement as one of her written policy planks - T<SPAN
class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347highlight>o my knowledge the
only one but the movement should grow to the point candidates
probably won’t be able to ignore it. </SPAN>Here’s Warren’s
policy paper on agriculture in general but in that she
specifically mentions right to repair:<BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"><A
href="https://medium.com/@teamwarren/leveling-the-playing-field-for-americas-family-farmers-823d1994f067"
target=_blank>https://medium.com/@teamwarren/leveling-the-playing-field-for-americas-family-farmers-823d1994f067</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I am watching the right to repair movement closely.<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Spencer<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV
id=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail-m_5249227966473923076qt-gmail-m_7420150113575157276AppleMailSignature
dir=ltr>Sent from my iPhone<BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">On Sep 16, 2019, at 10:29 AM, Al
Jones <<A target=_blank>farmallsupera1@gmail.com</A>>
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>No. If your tachometer goes bad, you get a new one
with 0000.0 hours. <BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Al<BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV
class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail-m_5249227966473923076qt-gmail_quote>
<DIV
class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail-m_5249227966473923076qt-gmail_attr
dir=ltr>On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 11:52 PM Cecil Bearden <<A
target=_blank>crbearden@copper.net</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
class=gmail-m_-2443874424762000347qt-gmail-m_5249227966473923076qt-gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">Probably not, and the mileage
on the title of an auto or truck is <BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">nothing that can be relied
on... I used to be able to tell by the wear
<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">on floorboards, rust, paint
scratches etc if a trucks mileage was <BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">right. Tractors are a
different animal. Usually just change the tires
<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">and if repainted, change the
hoses and belts, new seat and cab interior <BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">and it is a new
tractor.<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">Cecil<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">On 9/15/2019 8:36 PM, Jack
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">> Tractors are not titled.
Automobiles and trucks are. When you sell an auto, you record
the mileage at time of sale and your signature. Is it even
illegal to alter the hour meter on a tractor?<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">> -----Original
Message-----<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">> From: AT <<A
target=_blank>at-bounces@lists.antique-tractor.com</A>> On
Behalf Of Cecil Bearden<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">> Sent: Saturday, September
14, 2019 7:33 PM<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">> To: <A
target=_blank>at@lists.antique-tractor.com</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">> Subject: Re: [AT]
Statistics In Tractor Manufacturing Was Bicycle
Program<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">> The New Holland Money Pit
is what it is because somewhere in its history the hour meter
was turned back. New tires were installed and it was
made to look like a 5 yr old tractor with about 200 hrs per
year.<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">> Cecil<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">> On 9/14/2019 10:26 AM,
James Peck wrote:<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>> Some years ago I did
participate in an academic Statistical Quality Control course.
Much of the course involved the Weibull Distribution. If I
remember correctly, the Weibull Curve predicted the lifespan
of a manufactured assembly such as a tractor. It appears
to be a gift from the mathematicians.<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>> <A
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weibull_distribution"
rel=noreferrer
target=_blank>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weibull_distribution</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>> The same distribution
probably predicts that Cecil’s New Holland money pit will
continue to be so and will suffer an early demise.<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>> [Stephen Offiler] I
never took a whole semester of Statistics. Instead, we
had a course called Engineering Experimentation, which was
heavy on experiment design and statistical data
analysis. That gave me a very good appreciation for the
practical application of statistics. Out in the
real world, on-the-job training programs in quality control
principles in manufacturing (Deming, Juran, Lean Six Sigma)
continued to solidify the practical applications.<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>> [Cecil Bearden]
Steve: I nearly flunked statistics I only passed because I was
a graduating senior. However, I did flunk Rocks &
Clods 2124 and had to find another 4 hours to
graduate. Then 35 years later I retire as a
Geotechnical engineer designing foundations. !!!<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>> [Stephen Offiler] I'm
not sure if that is an interesting statistic, or simply
predictable statistically. All you just said is that a
bell-curve distribution for 2-year degrees overlaps a
bell-curve distribution for 4-year degrees.<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>> [ James Peck] The
interesting statistic is that some technical 2 year programs
have higher starting incomes than many 4 year degree programs.
People who complete such a program can later take a 2+2
program to get a four year degree if they choose.<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>>
_______________________________________________<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>> AT mailing
list<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>> <A
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>> <A
href="http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com"
rel=noreferrer
target=_blank>http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">>
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<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"><SPAN>_______________________________________________</SPAN><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"><SPAN>AT mailing
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