<HTML xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m =
"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<STYLE>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</STYLE>
<STYLE><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0
{mso-style-name:msonormal;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY lang=EN-US dir=ltr vLink=purple link=blue>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>Adding weight on the rear wheels (wheel weights or loading with fluid) will
shift the CG back but have no effect on the actual weight on the front
axle. However, adding weight at the back of the tractor (weight box,
mounted implement, etc.) will reduce the absolute weight on the front axle,
shifting the same amount to the rear axle. For example, if the tractor has
a 6 foot wheelbase and you hang 100 pounds 3 feet behind the rear axle, you will
take 50 pounds off the front axle and add 150 to the rear.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Jim Becker</DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=dean@vinsonfarm.net>Dean
Vinson</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 04, 2019 5:51 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=at@lists.antique-tractor.com>'Antique Tractor Email
Discussion Group'</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [AT] weighted tires or not???</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Dean VP, completely agree—the
loader moves the COG forward as you said, and rear weights move it back rearward
and downward as Steve had said. Only quibble I’d add is that you may have
meant to say adding ballast in the rear reduces “the relative proportion of”
weight on the front axle, not the absolute weight on the front
axle.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">I’ve never rolled a tractor but
have a little sub-compact utility tractor with a mower deck and loader. I
should get a rear counterweight for the 3-point hitch (or an implement, as
you’ve done) for use with the loader, but just having the mower deck on helps a
lot. (Although it can be in the way sometimes, limiting the usefulness of
the loader). But without at least the mower deck on, the loader is
all but useless… little tractor is just too tippy.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Dean
Vinson<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Saint Paris,
Ohio<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal><B>From:</B> AT [mailto:at-bounces@lists.antique-tractor.com]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>deanvp@att.net<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 4, 2019
2:04 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group'
<at@lists.antique-tractor.com><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [AT] weighted tires
or not???<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Steven<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Here is why I think adding rear counter weight to a tractor
with a loader helps stability against roll-over.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>When a loader is added to a tractor the COG moves
forward. With a load in the bucket it moves further forward almost over the
front axle causing less traction or weight on the rear axle/tires. Note:
adding ballast in the rear reduces weight on the front axle with more on the
rear. Most of the roll over stability comes from the rear tires. One
does not want the tractor stability coming from a rotating WFE or a NFE.
The rear wheels need to have a dominate role. This may be an intuitive response
but I think the physics will verify it. <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Dean VP<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Snohomish, WA 98290<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B>From:</B> AT
<<A>at-bounces@lists.antique-tractor.com</A>> <B>On Behalf Of </B>Stephen
Offiler<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 3, 2019 5:19 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Antique
Tractor Email Discussion Group
<<A>at@lists.antique-tractor.com</A>><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [AT] weighted
tires or not???<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>In 3-dimensional space, the CG of a tractor is likely to be
very close to the center in terms of left-right; closer to the rear in terms of
front-back; and some height from the ground. When you add ballast to the
tires it does not change that left-right CG location (assuming you add ballast
equally to both rears), and moves CG even farther to the rear and closer to the
ground. It is intuitively clear that a tractor on the verge of a side
rollover will be aided by weight added to the uphill side. But from a free
body diagram perspective, the difference comes from the changes in CG rearward
and downward.<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>SO<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 7:56 AM Jim Becker
<<A>mr.jebecker@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; BORDER-LEFT: #cccccc 1pt solid; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">The added 500#
on the high side has more effect than the 500# on the low side. It is
farther away horizontally from the bottom of the low side rear tire (or the
magic triangle/trapezoid) and thus has more leverage. As far as it
“having a greater effect than any change in CG”, it is the same thing.
Looking at the 500# by itself is just selecting one component of the CG to
look at (a valid way to look at it).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">Adding fluid to
the tires definitely lowers the CG. How much depends on a bunch of
factors, including how tall the tires are, how high the CG is to begin with
and the relative weight of the fluid vs. the weight of the tractor. The
taller the tractor, the more effect it has. When we first started using
mechanical grape pickers (1960s), many of them were built on a very high
clearance tractor (6 feet+ under the axles). The things were plenty
heavy enough as delivered, but everyone loaded the tires to help the
stability.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">Jim
Becker<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
Dennis Johnson <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
Monday, September 02, 2019 5:46 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>
Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> Re:
[AT] weighted tires or not???<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">Static rollover
happens when the CG moves outside of the pivot point which is the bottom of
the downside tire (or tires of pivot is against stop). As long as the CG is
“inside” of the down side rear tire the vehicle will not roll. As soon as the
CG moves outside of the pilot point the unit will rollover.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">Dynamic
rollover when turning at speed changes things because it adds centrifugal
force to help shove the CG sideways and make the unit roll
sooner.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">With weighted
tires, the downside tire has an extra 500# outside of the pivot point trying
to tip it, in addition to the 500# or the upside tire holding it back.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">Dennis<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<DIV id=gmail-m_-5025098376517213717AppleMailSignature>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">Sent from my
iPad<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"><BR>On Sep 2, 2019, at 5:22 PM, Howard
Pletcher <<A>hrpletch@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Wouldn't
the extra 500# or so holding the high side down have a greater effect than
any change in CG? It seems it would be more
stable.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma",sans-serif; COLOR: black'>Howard<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">On Mon, Sep
2, 2019 at 5:54 PM Dennis Johnson <<A>moscowengnr@outlook.com</A>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; BORDER-LEFT: #cccccc 1pt solid; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">The
weighted tires would lower the center of gravity slightly. Assuming the
tires were 100% full the CG of the added fluid would be on the axle CG. If
less than 100%, then the CG would be slightly lower. The CG of most
tractors will be slightly above the axle center. Tractors with offset
final drives would have CG a little higher than those with the final drive
in line with the engine crankshaft. Combining the CG of the tires and
tractor would lower the overall CG a little bit, making the tractor more
stable.<BR>Adding low mounted implements or weights would change
this.<BR><BR>Dennis<BR><BR>Sent from my iPad<BR><BR>> On Sep 2, 2019,
at 2:37 PM, John Hall <<A>jtchall@nc.rr.com</A>> wrote:<BR>>
<BR>> All this talk about wide front vs. narrow front got me wondering
about something else. Are tractors with fluid filled rears more stable on
hills or in quick maneuvering on uneven ground? The reason I ask is that I
replaced the tires on a IH utility tractor we have had since new (1972
454). It has over 8,000 hrs and we have always had weighted tires on it.
Well I didn't have time to fill the tires with fluid before I began using
it this spring. So far I am liking the less weight for treading on wet
spots in fields. I recently reduced the air pressure (it was at 25, I
dropped it to 20) because it was shaking me to death while spraying a
field. The only time the loss of weight has been an issue is moving one
load of hay--it was digging pretty bad. We do all of our bushogging with
this tractor so there are quite a few banks and hillsides to get into.
Wonder if it would be more stable with the fluid in?<BR>> <BR>> John
Hall<BR>> <BR>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> AT mailing
list<BR>> <A>AT@lists.antique-tractor.com</A><BR>> <A
href="http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com"
target=_blank>http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com</A><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>AT
mailing list<BR><A>AT@lists.antique-tractor.com</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com"
target=_blank>http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">_______________________________________________<BR>AT
mailing list<BR><A>AT@lists.antique-tractor.com</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com"
target=_blank>http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">_______________________________________________<BR>AT
mailing list<BR><A target=_blank>AT@lists.antique-tractor.com</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com"
target=_blank>http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<BR>AT
mailing list<BR><A target=_blank>AT@lists.antique-tractor.com</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com"
target=_blank>http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com</A><o:p></o:p></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
_______________________________________________<BR>AT mailing
list<BR>AT@lists.antique-tractor.com<BR>http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>