<html>
<head>
<meta name="generator" content="Windows Mail 17.5.9600.22013">
<style data-externalstyle="true"><!--
p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph {
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
}
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
}
p.MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst, li.MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst, div.MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst,
p.MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle, li.MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle, div.MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle,
p.MsoListParagraphCxSpLast, li.MsoListParagraphCxSpLast, div.MsoListParagraphCxSpLast {
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
line-height:115%;
}
--></style></head>
<body dir="ltr">
<div data-externalstyle="false" dir="ltr" style="font-family: 'Calibri', 'Segoe UI', 'Meiryo', 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', 'sans-serif';font-size:12pt;"><div>Story is Harry Ferguson was demonstrating one of his tractors, reached over to start it while standing next to it, tractor was in gear and nearly ran himself over. He turned to his engineers and told them don’t let that happen again. The gear shift starter was their solution.<br></div><div data-signatureblock="true"><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div style="padding-top: 5px; border-top-color: rgb(229, 229, 229); border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid;"><div><font face=" 'Calibri', 'Segoe UI', 'Meiryo', 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', 'sans-serif'" style='line-height: 15pt; letter-spacing: 0.02em; font-family: "Calibri", "Segoe UI", "Meiryo", "Microsoft YaHei UI", "Microsoft JhengHei UI", "Malgun Gothic", "sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt;'><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:robinson46176@gmail.com" target="_parent">Indiana Robinson</a><br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 3, 2019 10:32 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:at@lists.antique-tractor.com" target="_parent">Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group</a></font></div></div><div><br></div><div dir=""><div dir="ltr"><div>There are literally hundreds of factors involved in tractor stability. I believe that the most frequent cause of roll-overs is dropping a wheel in a hole or off of a ditch bank. Next is hitting an unseen object. My sister's husband rolled one by hitting a stump in tall grass. He wouldn't normally have hit it with the rear wheel first since the small tractor was wide front but he was in mid turn and the front wheel missed it. He was also an "inexperienced operator". That term, "inexperienced operator" is a giant factor in tractor accidents of all kinds. I constantly see my non-farming neighbors doing all sorts of really scary things.</div><div>One factor I have looked at is what is commonly called "offset" tractors. My Farmall Cub is one as is a Farmall A or Super A. Ford sold a number of offsets in the later 1950's.</div><div>Another variation is a centered tractor but where the operator sits off to one side. Allis WC, WD and WD-45 are in that class as is the Farmall B. Some 12 year old kid isn't much of a factor on those but some of us "FATG's" can be a big factor. :-)</div><div>A similar factor can be how high the operator sits on the tractor. My Ford 8N's and Ferguson TO-20 sit the operator very low astride the transmission. Others like my old Case VAC and a Farmall C / Super C sit you up high with your feet on a platform above the transmission and your butt up at chair height above that.</div><div>High clearance tractors can be a whole other scary thing on rough ground with some at nosebleed levels.</div><div>Another factor is ground that can set up a rocking motion. A rock or hole is usually a one time thing but I can recall back in the old days when we cultivated several times and threw a lot of dirt in the rows to cover weeds. Then we would later be disking the same field diagonal for wheat and it was possible to get a tractor rocking pretty hard.</div><div><br></div><div>Here is a factor that has come up in the background in these discussions. Ford was mentioned as a roll-over tractor... Frankly I personally have never seen or heard of one rolling in my life except for the old Fordsons back flipping. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it isn't so, I just haven't seen any. Maybe people just sit them back up and keep quiet about it. There is a sort of a "Ford factor"... There simply were more Ford N series tractors made and sold in North America than any other tractor, period. Not only were there more of them but as a light tractor with three point hitch they are highly versatile and near ideal for small acreages. You can also walk in most farm stores and buy equipment and accessories for them. As a result large numbers of them have fallen into the hands of the above mentioned "inexperienced operators". Even on the farm they were considered to be pretty safe and often ended up with very young operators. I recall a lot of discussion years ago among farmers about the starter safety interlock that kept it from being started in gear. It sticks in my head that the interlock was Harry Ferguson's idea.</div><div><br></div><div>These are mostly pretty small factors but sometimes a small factor is the difference.</div><div><br></div><div>I have been extremely lucky over a lot of years. ANY of us can slip up at any moment... I try to increase my level of caution along with my birthdays but there are no guarantees.<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>.<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 8:19 AM Stephen Offiler <<a href="mailto:soffiler@gmail.com" target="_parent">soffiler@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;"><div dir="ltr">In 3-dimensional space, the CG of a tractor is likely to be very close to the center in terms of left-right; closer to the rear in terms of front-back; and some height from the ground. When you add ballast to the tires it does not change that left-right CG location (assuming you add ballast equally to both rears), and moves CG even farther to the rear and closer to the ground. It is intuitively clear that a tractor on the verge of a side rollover will be aided by weight added to the uphill side. But from a free body diagram perspective, the difference comes from the changes in CG rearward and downward.<div><br></div><div>SO</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 7:56 AM Jim Becker <<a href="mailto:mr.jebecker@gmail.com" target="_parent">mr.jebecker@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri; font-size: 12pt;">
<div>The added 500# on the high side has more effect than the 500# on the low
side. It is farther away horizontally from the bottom of the low side rear
tire (or the magic triangle/trapezoid) and thus has more leverage. As far
as it “having a greater effect than any change in CG”, it is the same
thing. Looking at the 500# by itself is just selecting one component of
the CG to look at (a valid way to look at it).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Adding fluid to the tires definitely lowers the CG. How much depends
on a bunch of factors, including how tall the tires are, how high the CG is to
begin with and the relative weight of the fluid vs. the weight of the
tractor. The taller the tractor, the more effect it has. When we
first started using mechanical grape pickers (1960s), many of them were built on
a very high clearance tractor (6 feet+ under the axles). The things were
plenty heavy enough as delivered, but everyone loaded the tires to help the
stability.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Jim Becker</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri; font-size: small; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none; display: inline;">
<div style="font: 10pt/normal tahoma; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
<div><font face="Calibri" size="3"></font> </div>
<div style="background: rgb(245, 245, 245);">
<div><b>From:</b> <a>Dennis Johnson</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 02, 2019 5:46 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a>Antique Tractor Email
Discussion Group</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [AT] weighted tires or not???</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri; font-size: small; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none; display: inline;">Static
rollover happens when the CG moves outside of the pivot point which is the
bottom of the downside tire (or tires of pivot is against stop). As long as the
CG is “inside” of the down side rear tire the vehicle will not roll. As soon as
the CG moves outside of the pilot point the unit will rollover.
<div>Dynamic rollover when turning at speed changes things because it adds
centrifugal force to help shove the CG sideways and make the unit roll
sooner.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>With weighted tires, the downside tire has an extra 500# outside of the
pivot point trying to tip it, in addition to the 500# or the upside tire holding
it back. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Dennis</div>
<div><br><br>
<div id="gmail-m_-6001309785384490641gmail-m_-5025098376517213717AppleMailSignature" dir="ltr">Sent from my iPad</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>On Sep 2, 2019, at 5:22 PM, Howard Pletcher
<<a>hrpletch@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: tahoma,sans-serif;">Wouldn't the
extra 500# or so holding the high side down have a greater effect than any
change in CG? It seems it would be more stable.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: tahoma,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: tahoma,sans-serif;">Howard</div></div>
<div> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 5:54 PM Dennis Johnson
<<a>moscowengnr@outlook.com</a>> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;">The
weighted tires would lower the center of gravity slightly. Assuming the
tires were 100% full the CG of the added fluid would be on the axle CG. If
less than 100%, then the CG would be slightly lower. The CG of most tractors
will be slightly above the axle center. Tractors with offset final drives
would have CG a little higher than those with the final drive in line with
the engine crankshaft. Combining the CG of the tires and tractor would lower
the overall CG a little bit, making the tractor more stable.<br>Adding low
mounted implements or weights would change this.<br><br>Dennis<br><br>Sent
from my iPad<br><br>> On Sep 2, 2019, at 2:37 PM, John Hall <<a>jtchall@nc.rr.com</a>> wrote:<br>> <br>> All this
talk about wide front vs. narrow front got me wondering about something
else. Are tractors with fluid filled rears more stable on hills or in quick
maneuvering on uneven ground? The reason I ask is that I replaced the tires
on a IH utility tractor we have had since new (1972 454). It has over 8,000
hrs and we have always had weighted tires on it. Well I didn't have time to
fill the tires with fluid before I began using it this spring. So far I am
liking the less weight for treading on wet spots in fields. I recently
reduced the air pressure (it was at 25, I dropped it to 20) because it was
shaking me to death while spraying a field. The only time the loss of weight
has been an issue is moving one load of hay--it was digging pretty bad. We
do all of our bushogging with this tractor so there are quite a few banks
and hillsides to get into. Wonder if it would be more stable with the fluid
in?<br>> <br>> John Hall<br>> <br>>
_______________________________________________<br>> AT mailing
list<br>> <a>AT@lists.antique-tractor.com</a><br>> <a href="http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com" target="_parent" rel="noreferrer">http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com</a><br>_______________________________________________<br>AT
mailing list<br><a>AT@lists.antique-tractor.com</a><br><a href="http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com" target="_parent" rel="noreferrer">http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com</a><br></blockquote></div></div></blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">
<div dir="ltr"><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>AT
mailing
list</span><br><span><a>AT@lists.antique-tractor.com</a></span><br><span><a href="http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com" target="_parent">http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div>
<p>
</p><hr>
_______________________________________________<br>AT mailing
list<br><a href="mailto:AT@lists.antique-tractor.com" target="_parent">AT@lists.antique-tractor.com</a><br><a href="http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com" target="_parent">http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com</a><br><p></p></div></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
AT mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:AT@lists.antique-tractor.com" target="_parent">AT@lists.antique-tractor.com</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com" target="_parent" rel="noreferrer">http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
AT mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:AT@lists.antique-tractor.com" target="_parent">AT@lists.antique-tractor.com</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com" target="_parent" rel="noreferrer">http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>-- <br><br>Francis Robinson<br>aka "farmer"<br>Central Indiana USA<br><a href="mailto:robinson46176@gmail.com" target="_parent">robinson46176@gmail.com</a><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br></div></div></div>
</div></div>
</body>
</html>