[AT] Something to do

Sat Sep 19 16:03:44 PDT 2020

I agree Dean.  Even when you pay a “professional” for a restoration, you can be highly disappointed after paying top dollar.  I had one done and when it came back the power steering still didn’t work correctly, and if you left is sit a few days with the battery terminals hooked up the battery was dead.  So much for the new wiring harness and power steering rebuild.  Best to do it yourself if possible, or have someone you really trust do some of the components.  Mechanicals are always a never ending job.  Same goes for paint.  I was at Gathering of the Green and there was a gorgeous 51 John Deere B with a promotional sign  saying “we painted this tractor for $4,500.00.  I looked at it several time to make sure I was seeing things correctly as a 51 B tops out quite a bit less than that.  I know painting has gone to crazy NASA technology these days, expensive paints and solvents, base coat clear coat on sheet metal, even whole tractors, but 4.5K for just a paint job is WAY out of line as far as I’m concerned.  I also made the mistake many years ago for buying a “Sherwin Williams” overhaul; wound up completely rebuilding that beauty.  Buyer beware.

I also understand what Spencer was asking for so threw in my opinion based on his reasonable info from the family involved.

Dave in Ohio

From: AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> On Behalf Of Dean VP
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2020 5:56 PM
To: 'Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group' <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Subject: Re: [AT] Something to do

Spencer,

Unless the guy did the restorations himself he too may be depending on unreliable information. His intent and motivation may be pure as the fresh fallen snow but does he really know what has been done to each tractor?   That is the missing detail here.  Without that information directly from the original person who did the restorations or even from someone who knew that person and knew what kind of work that person did it is a complete crap shoot without personal hands on inspection.  I could give some pricing ranges on specific tractors but I don’t think that would be very useful. $1000 to $4000 for example would not be very helpful.    Even if one were to add the required caveats to any number supplied the receiver of the information will always take one of the extreme ends dependent on their situation.  That is just human nature. 

For example, there are a few beautifully painted tractors in the greater Phoenix area that are described as professionally restored.  Some with asking prices in the mid $20,000’s. There was one particular tractor that interested me and I wanted to look at it to see what a really professionally tractor of that model and year really looked like, take some pictures and possibly find out if  there was any negotiating room if I really remained interested in  it. I have a tractor of that model and year in work for restoration right now and given a decent price I could get to the end result I’m looking for quicker with maybe not a huge increase in total cost. Correct restorations can get  expensive. The pictures were spectacular and enticing.   So……  I had to go take a look.  The owner had passed and the widow was selling the tractors with the aid of a neighbor who knew nothing about the tractors other than they were “professionally restored”  Being very familiar with most of the details of this particular model of tractor I was stunned when I actually got hands on. The paint job was pretty good but it went down hill fast from there.  When I started going through the details of the tractor I uncovered missing parts, incorrect parts, partially restored assemblies, wrong tire sizes, decals in the wrong place and incorrect for this particular tractor, etc, etc,  Things and details that a honest professional restorer would never overlook. Example, there are decal suppliers out there that supply incorrect decals for certain model and year tractors. A professional restorer knows who are the suppliers of correct decals. Details, yes, but….  if I’m going to pay top dollar it damned well be done correctly or I will deduct value to correct it.  So to be honest I was so disappointed I didn’t even try to negotiate a deal.  I looked at all the other tractors for sale that were also supposedly professionally restored and even with less detailed knowledge on each model tractor I had enough experience to again detect many of the same warts that I had uncovered on the target tractor. BTW a couple of these tractors may end up on the Barrett Jackson auction next year. The asking price on one of the tractors, a Plain Jane late model JD B was somewhere between 4 to 5 times it’s value even if it was restored properly.  Maybe they will find that one buyer from nowhere who knows nothing about the tractor who will pay that kind of money.  But I can assure you it won’t be a knowledgeable JD Tractor collector

There used to be a popular business management consultant who wrote several books by the name of Tom Peters.  One of his sayings was: “ When I’m on an airplane and I see a fold down tray on the seat back in front of me in that is broken and dirty I immediately start to worry about how well the engines have been maintained”    So when one observes defects and deficiencies on things we CAN see on the exterior of the tractor there becomes an immediate concern about what  CAN’T be seen inside the tractor. 

I have found that most, not all, antique tractor sellers are honest.  IF, They have done all the work. If they are not the original owners things can go downhill real fast.  They May have been misled when they purchased the tractor. They may be honest with everything they say but conveniently not mention things if you don’t ask. So bottom line I get really cautious when I see pretty tractors for sale. Is it pretty because there is lipstick on a pig or has a real restoration been done?  Unfortunately many of the pretty tractors I have seen have been primarily cosmetically restored but sold as complete mechanical and cosmetic restorations. Makes one very cautious.  Now an exception, 20 or more years ago when I didn’t know “up from down” about antique tractors and how much it cost to do a really thorough restoration I was exposed to an antique tractor that was absolutely gorgeous and was being sold as a “Frame UP” restoration.  Supposedly every bolt had been removed the tractor and every part either replaced or restored to original or better condition. First of all I had a hard time believing someone would even do that on an antique tractor.  The asking price was quite high but not outrageous.  I really wanted that tractor but my gut told me to be careful.  I walked away. Not too much later I was able to talk to people who knew the seller and they verified everything the seller was saying about the tractor from personal experience.   It was a “Frame Up” restoration. The asking price actually WAS A BARGAIN AND I DIDN’T REALIZE IT.  Needless to say the tractor sold before I could get back to it.

So this goes both ways, the tractors may be professionally restored and worth top dollar or just cosmetically restored. I don’t think we or you know at this point. So providing price guidance is really risky, especially when there is a possibility of creating family conflicts. Sometimes it is better to bow out.

Dean VP

Snohomish, WA 98290

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

..Winston Churchill...

From: AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com <mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> > On Behalf Of Spencer Yost
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2020 7:55 PM
To: Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group <at at lists.antique-tractor.com <mailto:at at lists.antique-tractor.com> >
Subject: Re: [AT] Something to do

I don’t think the guy is motivated to mislead me, so when he said they’re all in good shape, complete and well restored I took him at his word.   The pics seem to back him up on this.  And I always couch my reply in caveats so that there’s no misunderstanding.

I wasn’t asking for any kind of professional opinion with an exact number, I was really curious about opinions you folks have as to  what’s something like these tractors worth(ballpark)  in your neck of the woods (again taking the info at face value and that they are reasonably well restored and running)?  I know there’s some details missing and we do not have all the information.  But seeing the pics of his shop and the tractors they probably don’t lack for much.

I was also hoping to generate some discussion as to how the pandemic and the prevalence of online options may be affecting values in your area.

I was really just looking for some rough info like Dave’s (drgerber) original post (Which I appreciate-thanks!).

PS. I did find out in a subsequent email that if an auction takes place in person it will be in Roxboro North Carolina - a good ways NW of Raleigh.

Spencer 

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 18, 2020, at 10:26 PM, drgerber at bright.net <mailto:drgerber at bright.net>  wrote:

I would agree with Dean entirely.  Hard to tell unless you hear each one run, drive it around, etc.  I was under the impression that they were “properly restored”.  Even one that is professionally restored still need the bugs worked out.  So, hope they are well restored and bring the family the desired results.

Dave in Ohio

From: AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com <mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> > On Behalf Of Jim Becker
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2020 8:34 PM
To: Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Subject: Re: [AT] Something to do

Dean really said it all here.  These thoughts (and maybe the words, verbatim) should be included with any reply to a “what’s it worth” email.

As to this batch of tractors, a few observations.  They definitely have, or had oil in them.  Oil absorbing mats can be seen in a few places, as can some oil puddles.  Look under the transmission of the 40.  Looking at the Cub, I see some lack of attention to detail.  The decals used are at least 10 years worth of wrong for the apparent age of tractor.  Maybe they bought decals based on the serial number and the serial number is older than a bunch of the parts.  Maybe it is a Heinz 57.  I also note several points of sloppiness in the wiring.  Likewise, the Super A has a bunch of black paint that doesn’t belong there.  I can’t speak to anything about the John Deeres, other than what is obvious to anyone.

Don’t get me wrong.  They are nice looking tractors that would show well.  But the bottom line is still, don’t confuse an overly shiny paint job with a first class restoration that would command a high price.

Jim Becker

From: Dean VP 

Sent: Friday, September 18, 2020 4:07 PM

To: 'Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group' 

Subject: Re: [AT] Something to do

After getting fooled by some antique tractors which looked really good but in reality needed a huge amount of mechanical work I think it would be unwise to make guesses as to value. I have no valid reason to doubt that these have been both mechanically as well as cosmetically restored bujt….  And with no leaks on the floor either says they have been meticulously restored or they have no fluid in them.   BUT…. Have they been mechanically restored as well as cosmetically restored? We don’t know the answer to those questions.  Without knowing that answer any value placed on them would be very dangerous. The real problem with cosmetic only restoration is the cosmetic restoration usually gets damaged doing the mechanical restauration later an d then a new cosmetic restoration is required. 

Look like pretty good cosmetic restorations but…..    Without further information I would place a value quite low to protect against potential future expense. AND… that might be unfair to the family.

Dean VP

Snohomish, WA 98290

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

..Winston Churchill...

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