[AT] Ford Motives

Fri Feb 7 08:07:21 PST 2020

Likewise I also would not rate Ford over Ferguson... We had the 9N (bought
new in early 1942) until early 1954 when it was traded for a new 1953 Ford
Jubilee. That 9N was basically a trouble free tractor. When traded it had
never been torn down and all internals both front and back were still
original.
The refurbished McCormick 10-20 acquired and used as a second tractor after
WW-II never gave a single hydraulic system problem.  :-)
The Ferguson TO-20  bought new about 1949 was pretty much trouble free even
though the field work increased greatly about that time. It was the primary
workhorse for about 5 years and after several years my father did an engine
rebuild with thin-wall sleeves and oversized pistons not because it really
needed rebuilding but because he wanted the HP increase which gave it a
tiny bit more HP than the TO-30 Fergusons. That increase was needed for the
Allis hay chopper more than anything else. The Ferguson did go through a
series of clutches, some done and paid for by the dealer after a Hupp over
/ under drive was installed about 1952. It was finally removed and stored
after a couple of years and a half dozen clutches. It had even been sent
back to the factory by the dealer to be fully checked out. Several years
later the dealer asked to buy the Hupp unit back. He had someone who wanted
one and he wanted to see if ours would work OK in another tractor. When my
father saw him later the dealer told him that it burned the clutch out in 6
months... I have no idea what ever became of that unit but we personally
knew a hand full of farmers that owned Hupp over / under units and none of
them ever had any problems.
When the Jubilee came along it came out with a rotary vane hydraulic pump
on it and it was junk. It was repaired once under warranty and when it was
failing a couple of years later we replace it with one of the new piston
pumps that had replaced them in production. That one was a  good pump.
I did like using the Jubilee and we got it with the live PTO option
(hydraulic hand clutch) which was our first live PTO tractor. Again the
live PTO was needed for the Allis chopper. The drawbar uprights on that
tractor were terribly flimsy and about 50% thinner than the sets from the
9N or the TO-20. The Jubilee engine served well but the hydraulics gave a
lot of minor trouble, mostly frequent failure of the O ring on the ram
piston.
A decision was made in 1961 to buy a new MF 65 diesel high arch and a lot
of thought and discussion went into which tractor to trade in for it. The
Ferguson was a good bit older and had about a half zillion hours on it but
the Jubilee which was only about 7 years old showed its wear worse at about
half or less of the hours. The wear was kind of general but one place we
noticed it was in the hydraulic rockshaft bearings. Much of the wear on
things like hitch parts etc. just gave the impression that it was  just
made of lesser quality metal than the Ferguson. It was the Jubilee that got
traded
We completely restored that Ferguson in the mid 1960's but it didn't really
need much except engine work and a few odd parts. Sadly my mother didn't
share our fondness for old tractors and in the early 1970's she pretty much
hounded my father into selling the Ferguson since "we had too many
tractors". I may forgive her for that someday but I'm going to have to live
a long time to do it... That was one great tractor. *Footnote: Not too long
after she passed in 2006 I bought the Ferguson TO-20 I have now with a very
tiny bit of my inheritance... I use it often, great chore / odd job tractor.
In spite of the fact that the original HP numbers were about the same The
Ferguson TO-20 would out work an 8N Ford at about the same level as it
would out work a 9N. We had 2 close neighbors that we often worked with
with 8N's and I used them fairly regularly. I really liked the 8N's but the
Ferguson TO-20 had a slight edge. In plowing tough ground it was common to
have to shift the 9N and 8N's into low gear but the TO-20 would always run
in second gear. I always attributed that to the fairly minor efficiency
difference between the flat head engine and the overhead valve engine. The
Nebraska tractor test guy (Larson?) discussed that in his book. He spoke of
a test where there was a significant loss of power (maybe even on an 8N,
I'm too lazy this morning to go look) with a flat head engine and they
pulled the head and cleaned it and lightly lapped the valves and got back
to the original HP. Kind of unhandy to do that in your field.  :-)
As I said I do like the 8N's. I bought a nice one about 1966, used it 8
years then stupidly sold it but at least it was for more than twice what I
paid for it. I now have two 8N's sitting in line. One just needs assembly
and the other needs an engine It has a pretty badly broken block that has
been pretty badly patched. I do have an engine for it, just no time. I
bought that second one mostly because it has a working Sherman over / under
unit in it. Son Scott also has an 8N in his waiting line. There must  be an
8N magnet buried around here somewhere.  :-)
The Ferguson TO-20 with the oversized pistons and the new Jubilee were a
good match working in the same field together. They weighed about the same
(the 8N's were a little lighter) except the Jubilee had 400 lbs. of cast
axle mounted weights tucked between the fender and the wheel. When we
traded the Ford in we removed those and put them on the Ferguson TO-20.
That MF-65 was a very good tractor.

On Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 4:57 AM John Maddock <agtronixjv at southcom.com.au>
wrote:

> SNIP
>
> "You are correct that I read my email and reply, based on my schedule, to
> some of it.
> John Maddock and I had had a discussion in the old Ford-Ferguson
> subgroup..."
>
> Hmm.. don't think so James.  Must have been a different JM! I would never
> rate Ford above a Fergie!
>
> JV
>
>
> >
> > I agree that the scotch yoke drive and  the Ferguson system pump work
> > together to give a robust system that will work as designed. Ford
> > initially used that design on the 8N their than create their own. A year
> > ago I could have given a link to a diagram.
> >
> https://www.tractorforum.com/threads/problems-with-mf-231-hydraulic-valve-selector.42997/
> >
> > I did work on a project with PTO mounted piston pumps in a mobile
> > application. Those pumps required an always positive inlet pressure. We
> > had to use temperature sensors to only allow the pumps to turn when the
> > reservoir oil was warm enough to maintain that inlet pressure at full
> > flow. We had a pump mounted on the transmission PTO to heat the
> reservoir.
> > I will probably have a lifetime uneasiness about suction on the inlet to
> a
> > hydraulic pump.
> >
> > You are correct that I read my email and reply, based on my schedule, to
> > some of it. John Maddock and I had had a discussion in the old
> > Ford-Ferguson subgroup in which he said that Ford was the better tractor.
> > I puzzled over that for several years. When the Ford NAA was introduced
> it
> > likely had a better hydraulic system than the TE and TO tractors of the
> > era.
> >
> > The NAA mounted the pump outside the tractor cavity. Eliminating the PTO
> > shaft drive of the hydraulic pump was something that was done to comply
> > with the ford Ferguson settlement. Ferguson had that backwards. They
> > forced Ford into a significant improvement.
> >
> >
> https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=hydraulic+pummp+mounting+location+on+ford+naa&docid=607988354344749238&mid=44387FFF29ED770758F144387FFF29ED770758F1&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
> >
> > Group problem solving training can include each person restating his
> > understanding in his own words until a consensus is reached.
> >
> > Long comprehensive articles do not accomplish as much as several short
> > focused ones.
> >
> > Thomas Martin AT List Member (tmartin at xtra.co.nz);  Hi James What is you
> > fixation with Ford & Ferguson fueled by?
> >
> > James <snip> "The Ferguson System regulated flow of hydraulic fluid into
> > the pump inlet. When I was working with hydraulic pumps that was a big
> > no-no." <snip>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > AT mailing list
> > AT at lists.antique-tractor.com
> > http://lists.antique-tractor.com/listinfo.cgi/at-antique-tractor.com
> >
>
>
> Be a good ancestor
>
> _______________________________________________
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> AT at lists.antique-tractor.com
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>

-- 
-- 

Francis Robinson
aka "farmer"
Central Indiana USA
robinson46176 at gmail.com
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